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Breadvan72

19,759 posts

49 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
I think that withdrawal from the EU is unlikely, but it might just happen. Joining EFTA seems to me the best option. It works well for Norway, but Norway has more oil than we have.

It is worth recalling that, despite the many faults of the EU, it remains primarily about trade. Most day to day EU activity is centred on competition enforcement, but that does not get headlines.

Most legislation in the UK still emanates from Westminster and Whitehall, not from Brussels or Strasbourg.

Derek Smith

20,597 posts

134 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Further from EB, we will have to comply with many of the dictats of the EU if we tried to trade with them.

What is probable is that there will be two 'levels' in the EU: political union and associate member so to speak. There are many facets of the EU that I rather like, free travel is one of them. So let's avoid political union and still have our say in the trading side - as long as it doesn't cost too much.

otolith

26,236 posts

90 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
I wonder if the Left would have so many ardent europhiles were the centre of mass of European politics to the right of that of Britain rather than to the left?

Breadvan72

19,759 posts

49 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
I do not think that views on the EU neatly divide along left/right lines. Many European governments are centre right. The main ethos of the EU is that of free trade, which is more right than left, traditionally. I agree that it also has elements that are paternalistic, and it has an illiberal and undemocratic character in many respects.

EFTA brings free trade and movement, but skips some (not all) of the Eurobollogs.

Edited by Breadvan72 on Saturday 6th October 11:13

Ozzie Osmond

16,221 posts

132 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
I do not think that views on the EU neatly divide along left/right lines. Many European governments are centre right. The main ethos of the EU is that of free trade, which is more right than left, traditionally. I agree that it also has elements that are paternalistic, and it has an illiberal and undemocratic character in many respects.

EFTA brings free trade and movement, but skips some (not all) of the Eurobollogs.
Quite. But this is PH where anything and everything falls into 2 categories,

  • Bad things - blame the left
  • Good things - thank the queen, prince harry and wave your union jack.
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Breadvan72

19,759 posts

49 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Tru dat. The fawning, cringing Monarchism of the average PH member is pretty chundertastic.

otolith

26,236 posts

90 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
I do not think that views on the EU neatly divide along left/right lines. Many European governments are centre right. The main ethos of the EU is that of free trade, which is more right than left, traditionally. I agree that it also has elements that are paternalistic, and it has an illiberal and undemocratic character in many respects.
.
It does seem to be the case, however, that the policies the EU imposes upon Britain are largely to the taste of the left and the distaste of the right - and anyone in favour of a state which does less is inevitably going to find the creation of a massive and expanding bureaucracy troubling. The EU has also been the mechanism for an enormous redistribution of wealth between nations.

I'm not sure I would describe any of the major EU players as economically centre right. I wouldn't describe our own country in those terms either, though it is perhaps where those who object to the EU would rather we were.

AJS-

Original Poster:

11,822 posts

122 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
otolith said:
I wonder if the Left would have so many ardent europhiles were the centre of mass of European politics to the right of that of Britain rather than to the left?
The past form of our political class says not, since when the Tories took us into the EU the situation was the other way round in many key areas, and EEC restrictions on public ownership were a fringe benefit to their noble quest to unite Europe in the loose federation of freely trading sovereign nations. So they said.

I say it as a man of the right and a big fan of Thatcher, but in the scheme of things the Tory party's record on Europe is a pretty poor one.

otolith

26,236 posts

90 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
That would not disagree with my suspicion that people are pro or anti EU more on the basis of how the resulting outcomes coincide with their preferences than because of a belief in political union.

AJS-

Original Poster:

11,822 posts

122 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
otolith said:
That would not disagree with my suspicion that people are pro or anti EU more on the basis of how the resulting outcomes coincide with their preferences than because of a belief in political union.
Absolutely. Sadly it's pretty rare for anyone to support principle over expedience in politics.
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