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turbobloke

61,177 posts

144 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
ad551 said:
I think it's very unfair to blame her for this. If you were at a bar on your 18th birthday, having a fun night out, and ordered a drink - no matter how gimmicky it was - you'd expect it to be safe.
WTF?

Not a chance in hell even with hell frozen to liquid nitrogen temperatures.

ad551 said:
You wouldn't expect to be waking up in a hospital bed a few hours later without a stomach and having to live with the consequences for the rest of your life.
If I was stupid enough to drink a reasonable amount of liquid nitogen I would expect the possibility of collapsing and not waking up.

Where is this credulous trust in ignorant unqualified people derived from?

I had always realised Darwin had it easy, but not so easy.

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V

"Drink this"

"Okay"

nuts

otolith

25,040 posts

88 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
I think it's probably fair to say that the bar's insurers are clenching. And while it might be patently unwise to order the aged chicken breast ceviche served with fresh Mersey estuary oysters, that's unlikely to be considered a reasonable defence when the local public health inspector wants to know who else you've poisoned - so I'm not sure that "she should have realised it was a dumb thing to drink" will get the bar cut much slack.

TankRizzo

2,568 posts

77 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
turbobloke said:
On contact with something warm, a blob of liquid nitrogen will acquire a surface layer of nitrogen gas around it or at least near the surface in contact with something warmer, and although the gas is still cold, the key point is that this gas layer will assist passage along somebody's tubes to any nearby resting place which is sealed off in some way e.g. a stomach.

As such, if a slug of liquid nitrogen remained in the drink, most of it will have found its way into her stomach, at which point she was about to be potentially fatally injured.
Now I remember, isn't there some trick you can do where you hold it in your mouth and blow "smoke rings", and the gas layer stops you getting burnt? Sure I saw that on a tv programme.

turbobloke

61,177 posts

144 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
TankRizzo said:
Now I remember, isn't there some trick you can do where you hold it in your mouth and blow "smoke rings", and the gas layer stops you getting burnt? Sure I saw that on a tv programme.
I believe so, just don't use too much and don't swallow...in fact, don't!

Must stay true to my views smile

jshell said:
Exactly. I've poured small amounts onto my hand and it just runs off on a bed of gaseous N2. I couldn't even feel it touch me. I imagine it did something similar on it's way down into her stomach, except there was no escape from the stomach so froze part of the lining.
yes

Nitrogen gas production impaired breathing, and the speed of production with a rapid increase in pressure was almost certainly responsible for perforating the remaining floppy bits of her stomach that could be stretched.

Anyway, enough said as far as this goes. The sheer stupidity in all parties involved beggars belief in my view, and that won't change even if Polly Toynbee writes an article in The Guardian about it.

rovermorris999

2,469 posts

73 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
I remember working in a lab which used liquid nitrogen to keep some detectors cool and there was an office in one corner just partitioned off. Great fun could be had pouring some on to the floor, watching it disappear under the partition bubbling away and the muffled swearing of my mate inside. Perfectly safe of course as we were scientists smile
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3point14159key

11,327 posts

76 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
thinfourth2 said:
Okay as someone who has worked with liquid nitrogen could someone please exlpain how you can get liquid N2 into a cocktail without the N2 gassing off and basically exploding
its fine if you're pouring it into an open container like a glass.

might go and film a few videos and put them up later tonight smile

Ozzie Osmond

15,998 posts

130 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
mrmr96 said:
Not everyone knows the dangerous of a substance like this - so if the barman/her mates told her it was safe then her error was only in being too trusting.
Liquid nitrogen shouldn't be there in the first place. Just because it's not toxic doesn't mean it's not dangerous. Very, very dangerous.

UF

Original Poster:

7,018 posts

67 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
I take it using LN in drinks doesn't fall under any of the the many Health and safety laws or Food standards.

I find it strange that any bar in the land can sell this.


ETA: Sky now saying she was out for her 18th Birthday.....

dave_s13

9,315 posts

153 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
turbobloke said:
ad551 said:
I think it's very unfair to blame her for this. If you were at a bar on your 18th birthday, having a fun night out, and ordered a drink - no matter how gimmicky it was - you'd expect it to be safe.
WTF?

Not a chance in hell even with hell frozen to liquid nitrogen temperatures.

ad551 said:
You wouldn't expect to be waking up in a hospital bed a few hours later without a stomach and having to live with the consequences for the rest of your life.
If I was stupid enough to drink a reasonable amount of liquid nitogen I would expect the possibility of collapsing and not waking up.

Where is this credulous trust in ignorant unqualified people derived from?

I had always realised Darwin had it easy, but not so easy.

|
|
V

"Drink this"

"Okay"

nuts
I happened to be out in town at the weekend and I must admit to drinking more than is good for anyone, a rare occasion for me. When I'm pi$$ed, and go to a bar and order a drink, it would never even cross my mind that it might cause me serious harm. Surely these places have to adhere to some kind of COSHH regulations for this stuff and I would be dumping the blame squarely on the shoulders of the business selling this to the public.

And I'm a long way from 18 too.

Nobody knows the exact details of what happened, but if we assume young lass goes to bar and orders a cocktail, is perfectly healthy before hands, then drinks it......it shouldn't leave her with a life changing injury.

ad551

1,501 posts

97 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
turbobloke said:
ad551 said:
I think it's very unfair to blame her for this. If you were at a bar on your 18th birthday, having a fun night out, and ordered a drink - no matter how gimmicky it was - you'd expect it to be safe.
WTF?

Not a chance in hell even with hell frozen to liquid nitrogen temperatures.
She was probably already drunk, and ordered something called a 'nitro-Jägermeister.'

If it's for sale somewhere, I think you'd could reasonably assume it was safe. Maybe you'd think it just had some dry ice in it, maybe you'd think the bar staff would only use a small amount to create the effect. You wouldn't think that you'd be about to drink something that would freeze your insides.

I've been in that bar - it only opened a few months ago - and it seems like a reputable place. I don't know whether the staff weren't given enough training on how dangerous liquid nitrogren could be, or whether someone made an honest mistake and used too much - but whatever happened, someone has been harmed when they should not have been through no fault of their own.

3point14159key

11,327 posts

76 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Ozzie Osmond said:
Liquid nitrogen shouldn't be there in the first place. Just because it's not toxic doesn't mean it's not dangerous. Very, very dangerous.
i wouldn't call liquid N2 very very dangerous.

I use it every day and I treat it essentially in the same way that I would treat boiling or hot water. Wear insulating gloves or be careful. try to avoid pouring on you - although actually this is not particularly a problem. The danger comes if you trap the nitrogen between your skin and something else - which allows it to cool down the layer of insulating gas that usually exists between drops of liquid n2 and warmer objects. when this happens you will start to freeze.

It's quite possible to stick your fingers into liquid N2 for a few seconds and not feel any pain or sustain any injury. equally you can pour it over your skin and not come to any harm - it feels very soft (like being brushed with a cloud or something... er).

obviously I wouldn't want to fall into a tank of the stuff. and of course, if you are working with large volumes in enclosed and badly ventilated areas there is a risk of suffocation - but that is easily managed.

Munter

25,030 posts

125 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
turbobloke said:
If I was stupid enough to drink a reasonable amount of liquid nitogen I would expect the possibility of collapsing and not waking up.

Where is this credulous trust in ignorant unqualified people derived from?

I had always realised Darwin had it easy, but not so easy.

|
|
V

"Drink this"

"Okay"

nuts
I think turbo that you are slightly out of line here.

Many people at age 18 will not have a clue how cold / dangerous Liquid Nitrogen is. Or the risks involved in putting it in a drink. And it's not reasonable to think that they would have a clue. Most will only have seen it in the context of Heston pouring some into cream/othergunk to make ice cream. So it's safe to use in foodstuffs is the message.

Add in watching other people drink the drink and being perfectly ok & "looking cool". And the bar selling it to you. (Well they wouldn't be allowed to if it was that dangerous would they...this is a safe place, got bouncers and everything)

It is reasonable to expect the staff not to serve you anything dangerous. Legally they are obliged to stop serving you if you are drunk. So they clearly have a duty of care to the customer (add in bouncers and in some cases medical staff on site, then there is clearly felt by the industry, to be a need to look after the customers after plying them with alcohol).

Put all of these things together, and that drunk girl should have been safe to consume anything handed over the bar. It is a perfectly normal thing for people of drinking age to do.

A darwin moment is looking into the barrel of a gun and trying to see the bullet as it comes out.

This was normal behaviour, and probably done copying someone else who is perfectly ok, rather than has their brains splashed over a wall.

The Black Flash

5,443 posts

82 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
rovermorris999 said:
I remember working in a lab which used liquid nitrogen to keep some detectors cool and there was an office in one corner just partitioned off. Great fun could be had pouring some on to the floor, watching it disappear under the partition bubbling away and the muffled swearing of my mate inside. Perfectly safe of course as we were scientists smile
Quite. My first introduction to the stuff was when one of the postdocs "accidentally" spilled a flask of it across my desk. I lept, he laughed smile

Odd stuff, it'll sit in an open flask on the desk for hours, not at all what you'd expect. We also had a chap who used to check the levels in the cryo flasks by dipping his arm in, well over the elbow. All good stuff.

andy_s

9,781 posts

143 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
I think it's fairly safe to assume a drink from a bar won't kill you or seriously harm you. I don't think she's been negligent in any way from what we know.

Further, I may be wrong but unless this was the first drink with liquid nitrogen served at this or any other bar in the world then there must be a 'right way' and a 'wrong way', but it seems on this particular occasion it was done the wrong way, either in the making or in the drinking.

Are they sure whether it is nitrogen or CO2 that was involved - I cannot imagine the advantage of a colder and more expensive liquid compared to CO2 just to get a smoke effect. I'm ignorant how this is supposed to work though, so could be...

fido

10,566 posts

139 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
3point14159key said:
i wouldn't call liquid N2 very very dangerous.
I beg to differ - at least in the context of ingesting it - it very nearly killed her. Agree with TB on the issue of negligence. Whilst i'm sure, she'll be going for compensayshun from the bar - it's a chilling example of why you should always have your wits about you, even when you're a bit trollied.

hyperblue

2,376 posts

64 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
There's some fairly harsh posts in this thread. When ordering a drink in a bar, I think it's a reasonable expectation that I'm not going to end up having my stomach removed as a result.

Ozzie Osmond

15,998 posts

130 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
3point14159key said:
i wouldn't call liquid N2 very very dangerous.

I use it every day and I treat it essentially in the same way that I would treat boiling or hot water.
Except, of course, hot or boiling water is also very, very dangerous.

You may recall the famous McDonalds coffee scalding case in 1994. Mrs Liebeck's attorneys discovered that McDonald's required franchisees to serve coffee at 82–88 °C. At that temperature, the coffee would cause a third-degree burn in two to seven seconds. The jury awarded Liebeck nearly $3 million in punitive damages.

kowalski655

2,250 posts

27 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
As she was just 18 too, she should not have been aware of the dangers of drink,APART from getting drunk( then again,with some teenagers.....)

fido

10,566 posts

139 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
hyperblue said:
When ordering a drink in a bar, I think it's a reasonable expectation that I'm not going to end up having my stomach removed as a result.
If i'm ordering a Bitter Shandy in Weatherspoons, then yes. But if i was in a club in Soho where they offered a super-chilled Guinness with Liquid N2, i might give it a miss .. you know just for self-preservation.

UF

Original Poster:

7,018 posts

67 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
fido said:
........- it's a chilling example of why you should always have your wits about you, even when you're a bit trollied.
It was her 18th, in a bar on a high street. She wasn't picking random mushrooms in the forest. It is more food poisoning IM(h)O.
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