Login | Register
SearchMy Stuff
My ProfileMy PreferencesMy Mates RSS Feed
2 3 ... 8 9
Reply to Topic
Author Discussion

Fittster

Original Poster:

15,932 posts

97 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
The government is determined to cut a further £10bn from the benefits budget to fight the deficit, Chancellor George Osborne has told the Tory conference.

One idea he suggested was limiting the number of children in a family that should be supported on benefits.

He said the better-off would pay more in taxes, but the budget could not be balanced "on the wallets of the rich".

He also unveiled a plan for workers to give up a string of employment rights in return for shares in their employer.

The new owner-employee contract allows owners to award shares worth up to £50,000 to their staff, in return for the employee giving up their unfair dismissal, redundancy and training rights and also the right to ask for flexible working.

He said there would be no capital gains tax on the profits from the shares, so it would be "owners, workers and the taxman all in it together".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19865692

Can't really see that getting non-conservative voters to give Dave a second chance in 2015.

tonker

46,743 posts

132 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Great. So he wants to cut £10Bn. So he still wants to increase the debt by another £130Bn or so next year. With the added interest cost for years of that.

He hasn't made any cuts (net). He still won't.

We spend £1Bn a week on debt servicing (paying for Gordon's insanity).

He is saying nothing. All that will happen is that he will tax me more (presumably by taking away my higher rates of pension tax reliefs as well as my son's child benefit), so he can steal ever more of my money to throw down the social security plughole (running at about a billion pounds a day all told).

230TE

556 posts

70 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
We were in the scensored this morning, and we still are. I wasn't expecting Osborne's speech to change that. There is only one thing that might get us out of this mess and that is for everyone, from the very top of every organisation to the bottom, to get off our fat behinds, work harder for less money than we have ever done, and stop finding new ways to reward ourselves for not working.

However that isn't the sort of thing any politician feels able to say, so we will all continue to drift along in the hope that the magic money tree will spring back to life and shower us with unearned wealth like in the good old days of Tony and Gordon.

I have long since ceased to believe that this is some kind of temporary financial crisis and that if we sort out the banks / tax the rich / cut a little bit off public spending (but not enough to actually affect anyone) everything will come right. We as a nation have been spending more than we earn for at least thirty years, and borrowing to plug the gap. That particular party is now over: we've run out of beer, and a bloke from the council has confiscated the stereo. The only thing you can say in Osborne's favour is that all the alternatives on offer (at least the ones the voters would find acceptable) are worse. We're all Greeks now, we just haven't realised it yet.

BoRED S2upid

10,541 posts

124 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Fittster said:
One idea he suggested was limiting the number of children in a family that should be supported on benefits.
Good, do it tomorrow limit it to two. So everyone on benefits that has more than two kids gets their benefits slashed tomorrow morning. Its a start at least.

Will it happen, tomorrow, next month, next year? Nope.

DJRC

21,799 posts

120 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
tonker said:
Great. So he wants to cut £10Bn. So he still wants to increase the debt by another £130Bn or so next year. With the added interest cost for years of that.

He hasn't made any cuts (net). He still won't.

We spend £1Bn a week on debt servicing (paying for Gordon's insanity).

He is saying nothing. All that will happen is that he will tax me more (presumably by taking away my higher rates of pension tax reliefs as well as my son's child benefit), so he can steal ever more of my money to throw down the social security plughole (running at about a billion pounds a day all told).
Yes Tonks and you earn enough to lead a comfortable life. And knock it off with any "But thats not the point..." because its entirely the point. You are of similar age to me, you got a gaff down in France, you can waltz around in roughly whichever motor you drooled about in the 80s and 90s and you live in a nice house. Gorgeous George has bugger all room for playing to yours and my benefits. There cannot be a butchers knife taken to the public spending. It would be political death, for the Torys now and the next 50 yrs. It would also in realistic terms come as close to crippling the UK as anything since the 70s. The country would be put instantly on its financial and social knees and there *would* be riots in every city in the country.

There isnt an easy or even very viable solution right now. All there is is play the long game and try to trim the fat here and there enough that they stay in power till they have some room and then benefit us all. If they dont and the other lot get in then whatever you are currently whinging about will be but fond memories.

Either suck it up and hope to hell it gets better or get out of the country. But you know that aswell as I do.
Advertisement

AJS-

11,712 posts

120 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
So what will happen when there's literally no more moneyt to pay the benefits? That's what happened in Russia in the early 90s and short of slashing everything else - health, education etc then I can't see another way out.

A wholesale cull of government departments might help though. I know they're small fry but Culture, Media & Sport, Foreign Aid, Department of the Environment, Department of Industry - let's get rid of them all.

Ozzie Osmond

16,050 posts

130 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
tonker said:
taking away my higher rates of pension tax reliefs.
What is the logic for giving the low paid a 20% incentive to buy a pension while giving the higher paid a 40% or 50% incentive?

Having said that, I entirely agree with you that it is for practical purposes impossible to deal with the government debt problem by raising taxes. As ever, the politicians can't resist relying upon inflation as the "vital tool" to solve all their problems!

I also agree that it's politically essential to target "benefits as a lifestyle choice" irrespective of the amount of hard cash involved.

BoRED S2upid

10,541 posts

124 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
AJS- said:
So what will happen when there's literally no more moneyt to pay the benefits? That's what happened in Russia in the early 90s and short of slashing everything else - health, education etc then I can't see another way out.
The way I see it there hasn't been enough money to pay the benefits for years. Would we ever get to a stage when we actually run out? I doubt it very much just keep borrowing who cares?

Digga

13,357 posts

167 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
BoRED S2upid said:
Fittster said:
One idea he suggested was limiting the number of children in a family that should be supported on benefits.
Good, do it tomorrow limit it to two. So everyone on benefits that has more than two kids gets their benefits slashed tomorrow morning. Its a start at least.

Will it happen, tomorrow, next month, next year? Nope.
Can't happen soon enough. As other posters (Countdown?) have mentioned elsewhere on PH, just about the only people who can afford to have big families these days are those on benefits.

AJS-

11,712 posts

120 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
BoRED S2upid said:
AJS- said:
So what will happen when there's literally no more moneyt to pay the benefits? That's what happened in Russia in the early 90s and short of slashing everything else - health, education etc then I can't see another way out.
The way I see it there hasn't been enough money to pay the benefits for years. Would we ever get to a stage when we actually run out? I doubt it very much just keep borrowing who cares?
We've tried that already!

Now the cost of servicing the debt is snowballing and soon enough just paying the interest will be a major component of government spending, while tax receipts will start falling as every tax is over optimized. Over the Laffer curve. We will then become uncreditworthy, and have to pay higher interest rates, exacerbating the problem until we have no one left to borrow from.

So yes we would get to a stage where we run out, and I would be surprised if it's more that 10 years away barring a minor miracle.

tonker

46,743 posts

132 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
DJRC said:
Gorgeous George has bugger all room for playing to yours and my benefits. There cannot be a butchers knife taken to the public spending. It would be political death, for the Torys now and the next 50 yrs. It would also in realistic terms come as close to crippling the UK as anything since the 70s. The country would be put instantly on its financial and social knees and there *would* be riots in every city in the country.

There isnt an easy or even very viable solution right now. All there is is play the long game and try to trim the fat here and there enough that they stay in power till they have some room and then benefit us all. If they dont and the other lot get in then whatever you are currently whinging about will be but fond memories.

Either suck it up and hope to hell it gets better or get out of the country. But you know that aswell as I do.
I have no problem in putting my hand in my pocket and paying. BUT, I expect others to suffer as well - and I expect the waste to be cut. That isn't happening. As keeps being said, you don't fix a leaky bucket by pouring ever more water into it.

What fat are they trimming - that implies a net cut, there isn't a cut to the debt. Only an increase. And this government is QEing to suit itself even more than the last goons.

The pain is needed. That much should be obvious to any politician. Even those on the far Left. You cannot continue to ask one section of society to keep paying ever more before they say "enough". And the problem is, they are asking us to keep paying, BUT they are not reducing the size of the public sector cost, they are not reducing the benefits by any meaningful amount and they HAVE NOT DEALT WITH PUBLIC SECTOR PENSIONS. They have further increased PFI and have added another £550Bn of QE funny money that they have just rolled into your and my childrens' futures.

All this lot want to do is kick the can down the road - and these riots that are coming won't be their problem...

I do however agree about this lot being less pain the other lot though - Labour would be a total disaster - BUT, we would at least need to press reset quicker and it wouldn't take as long to recover, as it is, we're just letting the gangrene spread....

martin84

5,366 posts

37 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
God Party Conferences are boring aren't they?

After alienating most, Cameron and Osborne now supposedly have the rich in their sights. They've both stated taxes on the richest will rise - although not in the form of a mansion tax - which sends out conflicting messages to the 'roll out the red carpet for Frances richest' remarks. Look at US news channels and the snippet at the bottom is just a simple 'Cameron plans for richest Britons to pay more tax' which I'm not sure is endearing us to the outside world. Considering Cameron has banged on about making us a 'business friendly country' it's just an odd message to send.

ralphrj

1,235 posts

75 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
AJS- said:
soon enough just paying the interest will be a major component of government spending
What do you mean "will be"?

Debt interest has been no. 4 on the list for a while now (behind Welfare, NHS and Education).

AJS-

11,712 posts

120 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
I suspect if Labour had won again we would be in better shape now. Sounds nuts, I know but hear me out.

Broon would have won with a small majority, a Lib Lab coalition even better. They would have QE'd the currency to st, kept borrowing, soaked the rich, and the whole towering monstrosity of left wing economics would have crashed down around them, 15 years into a left wing government with no one else around to blame, and those few Tories who genuinely stuck to their guns on government spending would be looking pretty clever.

The coalition would have fallen apart and a reinvigorated Conservative party with the confidence and moral authority to implement meaningful reforms could have won the following election.

But who was to know? Except me. And anyone who has read about or can remember the 1970s.

martin84

5,366 posts

37 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
I'm not entirely sure that sounds like 'better shape' to me. The Conservative Party may have been in better shape if results went a different way in 2010, but maybe not the country.

Digga

13,357 posts

167 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
tonker said:
I expect the waste to be cut. That isn't happening. As keeps being said, you don't fix a leaky bucket by pouring ever more water into it.

What fat are they trimming - that implies a net cut, there isn't a cut to the debt. Only an increase.
There is a fundamental disconnect between the voting population (public perceptions) and our economic reality.

To it's immense credit, the guardian does for all it's other left-leaning bleatings, attempt to provide data in terms people really ought to be able to understand: http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/doc...

Looking at that it's very simple to see where the really daft numbers are. Benefit spending is gargantuan and, for example, the teachers pensions budget is £7.5bn - in a similar order of magnitude as the whole Ministry of Justice budget and larger than the NHS pension spend.

IMHO the data in this diagram should be learned by heart for any cabinet or shadow cabinet member - before they even have the right to express an opinion - and it should be circulated far more widely in the public eye than it is.

AJS-

11,712 posts

120 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
ralphrj said:
AJS- said:
soon enough just paying the interest will be a major component of government spending
What do you mean "will be"?

Debt interest has been no. 4 on the list for a while now (behind Welfare, NHS and Education).
True but they're still a long way behind.




Actually I just googled that and it's gaining ground fast! £44bn compared to £89bn Education, £124bn on Health. Good old social security still trumps all at £194bn though. According to the first pie chart I found.


Cant post the link as I'm on some stupid, stunted device called an iPad that makes such things immensely difficult.

AJS-

11,712 posts

120 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
martin84 said:
I'm not entirely sure that sounds like 'better shape' to me. The Conservative Party may have been in better shape if results went a different way in 2010, but maybe not the country.
That was the part where I saidtheywould the get elected with a mandate to do something about it. Or are you being lefty?

martin84

5,366 posts

37 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
AJS- said:
Actually I just googled that and it's gaining ground fast! £44bn compared to £89bn Education, £124bn on Health. Good old social security still trumps all at £194bn though. According to the first pie chart I found.
Around half of that is pensions though isn't it? Not in and out of work benefits being sponged by the lazy feckless unemployed rolleyes


AJS-

11,712 posts

120 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
martin84 said:
AJS- said:
Actually I just googled that and it's gaining ground fast! £44bn compared to £89bn Education, £124bn on Health. Good old social security still trumps all at £194bn though. According to the first pie chart I found.
Around half of that is pensions though isn't it? Not in and out of work benefits being sponged by the lazy feckless unemployed rolleyes
It doesn't really matter what it is, it's a staggering amount of money.
2 3 ... 8 9
Reply to Topic