George Osborne's speech.

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Discussion

Jasandjules

69,787 posts

228 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
AJS- said:
It doesn't really matter what it is, it's a staggering amount of money.
Of course it matters. Social Security is seen as the benefits for the ASDA shopping Jeremy Kyle watching baby factory brigade. Whereas if 50% of that is in fact not benefits for those people then when comparisons are made to other aspects of budget spending, it is a skewed figure.

Personally I wish the Govt spending on their staff pensions was dramatically slashed. I spend a lot of my own money on a pension, why the feck should I pay for theirs too!??!


AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
AJS- said:
It doesn't really matter what it is, it's a staggering amount of money.
Of course it matters. Social Security is seen as the benefits for the ASDA shopping Jeremy Kyle watching baby factory brigade. Whereas if 50% of that is in fact not benefits for those people then when comparisons are made to other aspects of budget spending, it is a skewed figure.

Personally I wish the Govt spending on their staff pensions was dramatically slashed. I spend a lot of my own money on a pension, why the feck should I pay for theirs too!??!
I didn't mention the ASDA brigade though. The point is that this is the governments biggest expenditure by far, and it's huge even compared with health and education.

I really only posted it by way of a comparison with debt interest though. If it is half pensions then that means we are spending about half as much on debt interest as we are on pensions. Which I'm sure is good to know if you're granny is wondering if she an pay the gas bill this month.

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

245 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
Personally I wish the Govt spending on their staff pensions was dramatically slashed. I spend a lot of my own money on a pension, why the feck should I pay for theirs too!??!
^^^^ This

But it's politically easier to impose a supposed wage freeze and try to let inflation do its work.

sugerbear

3,928 posts

157 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
martin84 said:
AJS- said:
Actually I just googled that and it's gaining ground fast! £44bn compared to £89bn Education, £124bn on Health. Good old social security still trumps all at £194bn though. According to the first pie chart I found.
Around half of that is pensions though isn't it? Not in and out of work benefits being sponged by the lazy feckless unemployed rolleyes
Total costs of 2.75 billion for winter fuel payments.

My parents get this and whilst its welcomed I am sure there are a considerable number of pensioners that dont need it. A fairer way to pay this would be to raise the income tax allowances. That way those who really needed it would get it whilst Sur Alan Sugar wouldn't have to try and return it. Wont happen because its a nice christmas bonus for all those Tory voters out there (or Labour voters).

groak

3,254 posts

178 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
It's obviously important to stop 'welfare-lifestyling' and good luck with it. BUT it isn't funny or clever to impact negatively on genuinely vulnerable people (physically and mentally and some psychologically and emotionally damaged) who can't stand up for themselves. There is DEFINITELY an element of this. And it's not being addressed.

ralphrj

3,500 posts

190 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
AJS- said:
Actually I just googled that and it's gaining ground fast! £44bn compared to £89bn Education, £124bn on Health. Good old social security still trumps all at £194bn though. According to the first pie chart I found.
Correct - and increasing fast.

Under Alistair Darling's budget shortly before the general election debt interest was forecast to exceed education spending by 2015 and that was after the laughable inclusion of 3% GDP growth from 2012 onwards.

Debt interest is not increasing as much as that as although we are still borrowing more than Osborne would like to be at this stage we are able to borrow at record low interest rates (as a result of greater confidence in this governments determination to actually do something about it than the one before and relative to the Eurozone we look like a safer bet).

As UK debt is typically sold over longer periods than other countries (around 10-20 years rather than 3-5 years for most of Europe) we will benefit from these lower interest rates for many years to come.

Had Labour won the 2010 election we would have had the doubly whammy of higher interest rates on higher borrowings and would be looking at a Greek style meltdown in just a few years (unless of course that budget was a complete fabrication and would, as many predicted, have been followed by another budget that implemented a similar level of cuts to the ones brought in by the coalition).

ralphrj

3,500 posts

190 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
AJS- said:
martin84 said:
AJS- said:
Actually I just googled that and it's gaining ground fast! £44bn compared to £89bn Education, £124bn on Health. Good old social security still trumps all at £194bn though. According to the first pie chart I found.
Around half of that is pensions though isn't it? Not in and out of work benefits being sponged by the lazy feckless unemployed rolleyes
It doesn't really matter what it is, it's a staggering amount of money.
Whilst it is undeniably a staggering amount of money the fact that half of it is pensions makes it untouchable as far as cuts go.

As the retired are the demographic most likely to use their vote no government would ever cut pensions which only leaves 2 options:

1. increase the pension age - the government can do this but usually only with many years notice
2. start executing pensioners - bit of a non-starter...


AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
It seems like perfect conditions for another Hitler to rise, doesn't it?

martin84

5,366 posts

152 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
Saying we should cut Social Security because it costs more than Health or Education is a silly argument because only a Labour Government believes the only solution to things is to throw money at them. If Education doesn't need the same amount of money as Social Security then why should it receive it?

sugerbear said:
Total costs of 2.75 billion for winter fuel payments.

My parents get this and whilst its welcomed I am sure there are a considerable number of pensioners that dont need it. A fairer way to pay this would be to raise the income tax allowances. That way those who really needed it would get it whilst Sur Alan Sugar wouldn't have to try and return it. Wont happen because its a nice christmas bonus for all those Tory voters out there (or Labour voters).
Sounds simple in theory but the practice of means testing is an expensive one, especially with the DWP's broken administrative system. Politically it's thorny as pensioners usually vote Conservative and Cameron pledged in the televised debates to protect benefits for pensioners. I read an interview with one of New Labours lesser known former advisors a while ago on the subject of benefit reform and he stated that despite Labour's current bluster, a Labour Government would not reverse the Coalitions changes. He also mentioned when Social Security was set up it was based on a system of what you get out being directly linked to what you put in. As the nation changed in post-war times and the public became richer, somewhere down the line we decided it'd be cheaper for the state to means test everything but we're now in a situation where bureaucracy is defeating that.

greygoose

8,201 posts

194 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
AJS- said:
It seems like perfect conditions for another Hitler to rise, doesn't it?
Not in Britain, we'll stick to the middle of the road politicians who promise not a lot and deliver even less.

AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
greygoose said:
AJS- said:
It seems like perfect conditions for another Hitler to rise, doesn't it?
Not in Britain, we'll stick to the middle of the road politicians who promise not a lot and deliver even less.
Well I wasn't actually suggesting it. Agree though, more likely in one of the Eurozone countries. Or even all of them?

mattnunn

14,041 posts

160 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
greygoose said:
AJS- said:
It seems like perfect conditions for another Hitler to rise, doesn't it?
Not in Britain, we'll stick to the middle of the road politicians who promise not a lot and deliver even less.
I knew PH was predominantly right of centre but I hadn't realised things were this bad!?

greygoose

8,201 posts

194 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
AJS- said:
greygoose said:
AJS- said:
It seems like perfect conditions for another Hitler to rise, doesn't it?
Not in Britain, we'll stick to the middle of the road politicians who promise not a lot and deliver even less.
Well I wasn't actually suggesting it. Agree though, more likely in one of the Eurozone countries. Or even all of them?
Could be, nationalist parties campaigning against the ECB could do well, though Spain seems to be going down the seperatist route with the Catalans wanting to split off.

DJRC

23,563 posts

235 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
AJS- said:
I suspect if Labour had won again we would be in better shape now. Sounds nuts, I know but hear me out.

Broon would have won with a small majority, a Lib Lab coalition even better. They would have QE'd the currency to st, kept borrowing, soaked the rich, and the whole towering monstrosity of left wing economics would have crashed down around them, 15 years into a left wing government with no one else around to blame, and those few Tories who genuinely stuck to their guns on government spending would be looking pretty clever.

The coalition would have fallen apart and a reinvigorated Conservative party with the confidence and moral authority to implement meaningful reforms could have won the following election.

But who was to know? Except me. And anyone who has read about or can remember the 1970s.
So you are saying we would have been better shape if the country was brought to its knees?

Are you fking insane?

I know this is painful to here but the country isnt fked. It isnt even remotely close to being fked. Its muddling along. Its not bankrupt. Its not going bankrupt in the near future, its just muddling along and in the light of whats going on out there right now...thats as good as you bloody get! It makes Britain doing the 2nd best in Europe right now after Germany, i.e. a fking st load better than the rest of the place.

But you think it would have been better to have bankrupted us. Even for ph that is moronically imcompetently idiotic.

Blue62

8,706 posts

151 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
The most worrying aspect of all of this is that we could be heading for a triple dip, weak economy and no 'plan' beyond cuts is for me the major concern.

I know that Keynesian theory doesn't go down too well around here, but the economy is stagnant and without a rather more creative approach than 'slash and burn' I fear that we will remain in the doldrums for years to come. Before he got into office Osborne promised to lead the UK economy out of crisis, that could hardly be further from the truth right now, if anything the crisis is even deeper.

thinfourth2

32,414 posts

203 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
AJS- said:
I suspect if Labour had won again we would be in better shape now. Sounds nuts, I know but hear me out.

Broon would have won with a small majority, a Lib Lab coalition even better. They would have QE'd the currency to st, kept borrowing, soaked the rich, and the whole towering monstrosity of left wing economics would have crashed down around them, 15 years into a left wing government with no one else around to blame, and those few Tories who genuinely stuck to their guns on government spending would be looking pretty clever.

The coalition would have fallen apart and a reinvigorated Conservative party with the confidence and moral authority to implement meaningful reforms could have won the following election.

But who was to know? Except me. And anyone who has read about or can remember the 1970s.
Yep the current government are like a sticking plaster after you've cut your legs off with a chainsaw

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
martin84 said:
AJS- said:
Actually I just googled that and it's gaining ground fast! £44bn compared to £89bn Education, £124bn on Health. Good old social security still trumps all at £194bn though. According to the first pie chart I found.
Around half of that is pensions though isn't it? Not in and out of work benefits being sponged by the lazy feckless unemployed rolleyes
Who else do you think the pensions are being paid to?!

DJRC

23,563 posts

235 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
Blue62 said:
The most worrying aspect of all of this is that we could be heading for a triple dip, weak economy and no 'plan' beyond cuts is for me the major concern.

I know that Keynesian theory doesn't go down too well around here, but the economy is stagnant and without a rather more creative approach than 'slash and burn' I fear that we will remain in the doldrums for years to come. Before he got into office Osborne promised to lead the UK economy out of crisis, that could hardly be further from the truth right now, if anything the crisis is even deeper.
Lo and behold, the UK tries that and runs head first into the Nimbys and Planning farce. You would have thought people would use their common sense but that would require far too much common sense to work that out.

Jasandjules

69,787 posts

228 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
Who else do you think the pensions are being paid to?!
Civil servants. You know, the people who got nice pensions at the same time that piece of s**t Brown stole a lot of my pension and forced me to pay in a lot more.

Mojocvh

16,837 posts

261 months

Monday 8th October 2012
quotequote all
AJS- said:
martin84 said:
AJS- said:
Actually I just googled that and it's gaining ground fast! £44bn compared to £89bn Education, £124bn on Health. Good old social security still trumps all at £194bn though. According to the first pie chart I found.
Around half of that is pensions though isn't it? Not in and out of work benefits being sponged by the lazy feckless unemployed rolleyes
It doesn't really matter what it is, it's a staggering amount of money.
That people have paid for all their working lives.