Lord Carey in epic homophobic Godwin outburst

[Sticks.]

I'd like to see the word homophobia banned from this thread, if for no other reason than it's often used too frequently and inappropriately, and leads people dismiss another's view without properly considering why they hold it. And what's the point of discussion if you do that?

And despite the defence of it, it's a crap word. Most people will interpret it as an irrational fear - which is disrespectful of people's religious views, while at the same time almost excusing bigoted people's behaviour as in some way out of their control.

[Derek Smith]

CommanderJameson said:

I remember studying this experiment when I was doing my GCSEs, some 24 years ago. It's up there with Milgram's experiment in terms of showing how easily people can be manipulated, IMHO.

It was used in a lesson on prejudice when I was being trained in the police. I found it memorable, to say the least, but I'm not sure it was for the right reasons. The ease with which these kids could be 'turned' was quite shocking. If I hadn't seen the experiment I would not have beleived it. I think the experiment itself is to be deplored, almost child abuse, but the results cannot be ignored. Blue eyes, green eyes: white skin, black skine: homosexual, hetrosexual. All so easy.

I realise now how lucky I was with my parents' method of upbringing. There was never any pressure to make me go to church or, as importantly, not go to church. They introduced me to 'foreigners' without comment.

[anonymous-user]

Derek Smith said:

I realise now how lucky I was with my parents' method of upbringing. There was never any pressure to make me go to church or, as importantly, not go to church. They introduced me to 'foreigners' without comment.

I feel the same.

There was an interesting program on BBC last night about Grammar Schools. Those that seemed to escape their socio/economic chains/biases (bright kids from poor families in rough areas) were brought up by parents who, rather than provide answers, taught their children to make discoveries about the world for themselves.

[anonymous-user]

My parents, I am glad to say, haven't a racist bone in their bodies. My father, a working class Irishman who became, through economic migrancy, a middle class bloke, used to be traditionally sexist and a bit homophobic. He is still a tad sexist, but has educated himself, with help from his sons, not to be a homophobe. Learned behaviour can be unlearned.

[Bill]

Sticks. said:

I'd like to see the word homophobia banned from this thread, if for no other reason than it's often used too frequently and inappropriately, and leads people dismiss another's view without properly considering why they hold it. And what's the point of discussion if you do that?

And despite the defence of it, it's a crap word. Most people will interpret it as an irrational fear - which is disrespectful of people's religious views, while at the same time almost excusing bigoted people's behaviour as in some way out of their control.

I'm no Latin scholar, but strictly speaking wouldn't homophobia be an irrational fear of similarity?

[Derek Smith]

garyhun said:

Derek Smith said:

I realise now how lucky I was with my parents' method of upbringing. There was never any pressure to make me go to church or, as importantly, not go to church. They introduced me to 'foreigners' without comment.

I feel the same.

There was an interesting program on BBC last night about Grammar Schools. Those that seemed to escape their socio/economic chains/biases (bright kids from poor families in rough areas) were brought up by parents who, rather than provide answers, taught their children to make discoveries about the world for themselves.

Spooky. That's me. My father was one of 18 kids (just accept you are bog Irish my gransmoter once said), my mother one of 8, born into a terraced house in east London. I went to grammar school. "Well, let's look at what we know about it" is a phrase that was used by everyone in my immediate family and I found myself using it with my kids. I'll have to check on iPlayer to see if it's on there.

[anonymous-user]

Bill said:

I'm no Latin scholar, but strictly speaking wouldn't homophobia be an irrational fear of similarity?

Homophobia is in fact a word that combines Latin and Greek. There would be a certain irony, however, in reading it as fear of similarity, as many homophobes seem to think that they might catch "the gay" merely from being near "one of them".

[anonymous-user]

Derek Smith said:

garyhun said:

Derek Smith said:

I realise now how lucky I was with my parents' method of upbringing. There was never any pressure to make me go to church or, as importantly, not go to church. They introduced me to 'foreigners' without comment.

I feel the same.

There was an interesting program on BBC last night about Grammar Schools. Those that seemed to escape their socio/economic chains/biases (bright kids from poor families in rough areas) were brought up by parents who, rather than provide answers, taught their children to make discoveries about the world for themselves.

Spooky. That's me. My father was one of 18 kids (just accept you are bog Irish my gransmoter once said), my mother one of 8, born into a terraced house in east London. I went to grammar school. "Well, let's look at what we know about it" is a phrase that was used by everyone in my immediate family and I found myself using it with my kids. I'll have to check on iPlayer to see if it's on there.

My dad, from London, had to go to work at 14 to take care of his mother after his father died. It was then left to his older brother (older by 12 years) to bring him up. My mum came from a Welsh mining family but her father refused, after a year down the pits, to go digging for coal anymore and moved them to London to find a better life. Although my parents had little, financially speaking, my mum loved books and my dad was a great communicator. They sacrificed much, financially and in terms of time (my father would often leave work early to see me play football) to give me a wonderful childhood. I ended up the first in the family to go to grammar school and university.

It's quite amazing what parents do for their kids (I'm 49 without any so don't have the experience myself) and I have to take my hat off to those people who take young minds and help them develop into rounded, grounded, generous, productive, loving individuals.

[Sticks.]

Breadvan72 said:

.....as many homophobes seem to think that they might catch "the gay" merely from being near "one of them".

Oh really. Imho that sounds like the sort of generalisations which used to be made aboug gay people in the 70s, with litle or no basis in fact.

[JonRB]

Sticks. said:

Oh really. Imho that sounds like the sort of generalisations which used to be made aboug gay people in the 70s, with litle or no basis in fact.

It may be a cliché but it is rooted in fact. "Backs to the walls, lads" and all that.

[Sticks.]

JonRB said:

It may be a cliché.

It is. Adds nothing to discussion. Disappointing, frankly.

[JonRB]

Sticks. said:

It is. Adds nothing to discussion. Disappointing, frankly.

The thing about clichés is that they invariably contain a grain of truth. That's how they become clichés.

Fact of the matter is that people *do* say "backs against the walls, lads" and "don't try coming on to me" and the like.

Generally the response to that is "Don't flatter yourself, mate; I'm way out of your league".

[anonymous-user]

Irony detector batteries are available at your local convenience store.

[Sticks.]

JonRB said:

The thing about clichés is that they invariably contain a grain of truth. That's how they become clichés.

Fact of the matter is that people *do* say "backs against the walls, lads" and "don't try coming on to me" and the like.

Generally the response to that is "Don't flatter yourself, mate; I'm way out of your league".

I've got no time for them I'm afraid. If people can joke about their/our differences imho it's no bad thing though.

[Ozzie Osmond]

Derek Smith said:

If I hadn't seen the experiment I would not have beleived it. I think the experiment itself is to be deplored, almost child abuse, but the results cannot be ignored. Blue eyes, green eyes: white skin, black skine: homosexual, hetrosexual. All so easy.

I imagine your are finding it informative to see the way the Greeks are casting around for someone to blame for their predicament. Blaming the Germans seems to be order of the day with ridiculous cartoons of Merkel in Nazi regalia. Meanwhile the extreme right in Greece is on the ascendant. After all, it's always so easier to blame "foreigners" than to accept your own shortcomings.

Same is happening in UK where everything is currently blamed on the EU, even though City of London bankers were instrumental in the whole economic collapse.

The key education is to teach people to welcome "difference", not to fear it. This has been the key success of EU over the past 60 years and the recent Nobel prize recognised that success.

[Derek Smith]

Ozzie Osmond said:

I imagine your are finding it informative to see the way the Greeks are casting around for someone to blame for their predicament. Blaming the Germans seems to be order of the day with ridiculous cartoons of Merkel in Nazi regalia. Meanwhile the extreme right in Greece is on the ascendant. After all, it's always so easier to blame "foreigners" than to accept your own shortcomings.

Same is happening in UK where everything is currently blamed on the EU, even though City of London bankers were instrumental in the whole economic collapse.

The key education is to teach people to welcome "difference", not to fear it. This has been the key success of EU over the past 60 years and the recent Nobel prize recognised that success.

Thanks for that.

'informative' is perhaps not the right word.

It is so much easier to blame someone else rather than accept you were the cause.

Our history teacher was trying to explain why WWII was really an extension of WWI and got onto reparations, explaining that it would have taken centuries (can't remember the exact number of years as I was taught this in 1958) to repay them even if they'd been allowed to keep the Rhineland. One kid asked why they blamed the Jews for their financial problems and he replied that if they blamed the war then someone would ask who started it.

A little glib looking back on it now, but with more than a grain of truth.

I've got four kids: my sons/daugters-in-law are Japanese, Irish, UK (Scottish) and Polish (not a plumber though). When they bring their friends around it is like the United Nations, although as my eldest said, like walking through central London. It's great.

[Ozzie Osmond]

Derek Smith said:

When they bring their friends around it is like the United Nations, although as my eldest said, like walking through central London.

My feeling is the majority of Brits do not yet understand this. London is no longer "British". Anywhere amongst the masses (especially outside the sanctified square mile) it rapidly becomes apparent that English-looking people and English-speaking (first language) people are rapidly becoming a minority.

[Justayellowbadge]

Ozzie Osmond said:

My feeling is the majority of Brits do not yet understand this. London is no longer "British". Anywhere amongst the masses (especially outside the sanctified square mile) it rapidly becomes apparent that English-looking people and English-speaking (first language) people are rapidly becoming a minority.

Rubbish.

[anonymous-user]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Derek Smith said:

When they bring their friends around it is like the United Nations, although as my eldest said, like walking through central London.

My feeling is the majority of Brits do not yet understand this. London is no longer "British". Anywhere amongst the masses (especially outside the sanctified square mile) it rapidly becomes apparent that English-looking people and English-speaking (first language) people are rapidly becoming a minority.

You need the Nick Griffin thread mate....

[IainT]

Justayellowbadge said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

My feeling is the majority of Brits do not yet understand this. London is no longer "British". Anywhere amongst the masses (especially outside the sanctified square mile) it rapidly becomes apparent that English-looking people and English-speaking (first language) people are rapidly becoming a minority.

Rubbish.

Quite. While certain bits of London have strong ethnic leanings they're all still dominantly White. Having recently moved away from London back 'oop north' it really strikes me just how white the country still is outside our bigger cities. Sadly attitudes do somewhat reflect the lack of exposure to a variety of cultures and faces is telling.

I do still find it amusing and slightly odd that our local curry house is answered with a perfect Congleton accent rather than the 'London' norm.