another abuse gang

Author
Discussion

stuno1

1,296 posts

194 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Having had a daughter in the last year these sorts of stories put the fear of god in me! Clearly every parent tries to instil basic morals, common sense and an understanding of what is right and wrong in to their child. What more can we do? I simply don’t understand how so many people in a position of responsibility let this sort of activity go on around them. It makes me feel physically sick. If your children are not protected at school where are they safe?

These are the sorts of stories that put people off having children. You can protect your children to a point, when they are in the care of others there is nothing you can do. I am distraught, speechless and utterly depressed.


Edited by stuno1 on Monday 1st September 15:59

stuno1

1,296 posts

194 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Guam said:
I think you have just voiced the national mindset right there.

Next will come anger as the horrible and extensive nature of this comes to light nationally.

we will then see how robust our society is and whether we can internalise this and overcome it.
We have all read the very public child abuse stories over the last 5-10 years in the press. What is truly striking and disheartening about this case is the wide spread nature of it, the indifference/ineptitude of the carers of the children to report/stop it, the shameful amount of people who were aware of it and the procedures/authorities in place that did nothing to prevent it. It is truly horrifying!

gpo746

3,397 posts

129 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
As an experiment I am starting something today.
I will refer back to it later.

I hope, really hope that we will now start to call things for what they are.
This country has been wrecked.

carinaman

21,224 posts

171 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Cameron has been going on about the jihadists that have been to Syria and Iraq via the Turkish border and 'British values'.

Where does 'British values' that were mentioned in the squabbling between Michael Gove and Theresa May's Spin Doctor Fiona Cunningham over Trojan Horse schools in Birmingham sit with what was going on in Rotherham?

In the news this morning forced religious conversions in Iraq and Syria and selling young women and minors in markets after marrying them to 'legitimise' their subsequent rapes. How different is that from what's been happening in Rotherham?

Why would Blair think he could be the world's policeman while his party presided over what was happening in Rotherham? He is a deluded religious type with a messiah complex? Or just another politician as accomplished at cover up as they are at preaching?

PCC Wright is an exemplar of that British Value of getting away with it if you can? Another bit part player in Broken Britain?

Edited by carinaman on Monday 1st September 17:12

stuno1

1,296 posts

194 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Racism has nothing to do with it as many have pointed out. There is a theme here with the man committing the offences and clearly it needs to be understood why this is the case with men of this ethnicity. Can we not do this without appearing racist??? Of course we can't. This county is so PC it is insane. Let's just call a brick a brick for f's same!

mickk

28,772 posts

241 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
don4l said:
It is beginning to look that way.

She said that it was completely visible. Sometimes men would come into the classroom and remove a girl. The teachers knew some of the men and which girls they were looking for. Sometimes they would see a man approaching and they would hide the girl in a cupboard, and claim that she hadn't come to school that day. The teachers were not allowed to call the police.

She told me that social services were worse than useless. Everything was governed by political correctness. The teachers were utterly demoralised by their inability to do anything.
What's your next step with this information?

Spanglepants

1,743 posts

136 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Why were they not allowed to call the police?

don4l said:
It is beginning to look that way.

She said that it was completely visible. Sometimes men would come into the classroom and remove a girl. The teachers knew some of the men and which girls they were looking for. Sometimes they would see a man approaching and they would hide the girl in a cupboard, and claim that she hadn't come to school that day.The teachers were not allowed to call the police.
She told me that social services were worse than useless. Everything was governed by political correctness. The teachers were utterly demoralised by their inability to do anything.

Twincharge

221 posts

177 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Five of the eight men convicted of child sex abuse in Derby: Mark Adaoui, John Shaw,
Stefan Godfrey, Anthony Lambert and Ijaz Ahmed.



By now surely everyone knows the case of the eight men convicted of picking vulnerable underage girls off the streets, then plying them with drink and drugs before having sex with them. A shocking story. But maybe you haven't heard. Because these sex assaults did not take place in Rochdale, where a similar story led the news for days in May, but in Derby earlier this month. Fifteen girls aged 13 to 15, many of them in care, were preyed on by the men. And though they were not working as a gang, their methods were similar – often targeting children in care and luring them with, among other things, cuddly toys. But this time, of the eight predators, seven were white, not Asian. And the story made barely a ripple in the national media.

Of the daily papers, only the Guardian and the Times reported it. There was no commentary anywhere on how these crimes shine a light on British culture, or how middle-aged white men have to confront the deep flaws in their religious and ethnic identity. Yet that's exactly what played out following the conviction in May of the "Asian sex gang" in Rochdale, which made the front page of every national newspaper. Though analysis of the case focused on how big a factor was race, religion and culture, the unreported story is of how politicians and the media have created a new racial scapegoat. In fact, if anyone wants to study how racism begins, and creeps into the consciousness of an entire nation, they need look no further.

Imagine you were living in a town of 20,000 people – the size of, say, Penzance in Cornwall – and one day it was discovered that one of its residents had been involved in a sex crime. Would it be reasonable to say that the whole town had a cultural problem, that it needed to address the scourge – that anyone not doing so was part of a "conspiracy of silence"? But the intense interest in the Rochdale story arose from a January 2011 Times "scoop" that was based on the conviction of at most 50 British Pakistanis out of a total UK population of 1.2 million, just one in 24,000: one person per Penzance.

Make no mistake, the Rochdale crimes were vile, and those convicted deserve every year of their sentences. But where, amid all the commentary, was the evidence that this is a racial issue; that there's something inherently perverted about Muslim or Asian culture?

Even the Child Protection and Online Protection Centre (Ceop), which has also studied potential offenders who have not been convicted, has only identified 41 Asian gangs (of 230 in total) and 240 Asian individuals – and they are spread across the country. But, despite this, a new stereotype has taken hold: that a significant proportion of Asian men are groomers (and the rest of their communities know of it and keep silent).

But if it really is an "Asian" thing, how come Indians don't do it? If it's a "Pakistani" thing, how come an Afghan was convicted in the Rochdale case? And if it's a "Muslim" thing, how come it doesn't seem to involve anyone of African or Middle Eastern origin? The standard response to anyone who questions this is: face the facts, all those convicted in Rochdale were Muslim. Well, if one case is enough to make such a generalisation, how about if all the members of a gang of armed robbers were white; or cybercriminals; or child traffickers? (All three of these have happened.) Would we be so keen to "face the facts" and make it a problem the whole white community has to deal with? Would we have articles examining what it is about Britishness or Christianity or Europeanness, that makes people so capable of such things?

In fact, Penzance had not just one paedophile, but a gang of four. They abused 28 girls, some as young as five, and were finally convicted two years ago. All were white. And last month, at a home affairs select committee, deputy children's commissioner Sue Berelowitz quoted a police officer who had told her that "there isn't a town, village or hamlet in which children are not being sexually exploited".

Whatever the case, we know that abuse of white girls is not a cultural or religious issue because there is no longstanding history of it taking place in Asia or the Muslim world.

How did middle-aged Asian men from tight-knit communities even come into contact with white teenage girls in Rochdale? The main cultural relevance in this story is that vulnerable, often disturbed, young girls, regularly out late at night, often end up in late-closing restaurants and minicab offices, staffed almost exclusively by men. After a while, relationships build up, with the men offering free lifts and/or food. For those with a predatory instinct, sexual exploitation is an easy next step. This is an issue of what men can do when away from their own families and in a position of power over badly damaged young people.

It's a story repeated across Britain, by white and other ethnic groups: where the opportunity arises, some men will take advantage. The precise method, and whether it's an individual or group crime, depends on the particular setting – be they priests, youth workers or networks on the web.

Despite all we know about racism, genocide and ethnic cleansing, the Rochdale case showed how shockingly easy it is to demonise a community. Before long, the wider public will believe the problem is endemic within that race/religion, and that anyone within that group who rebuts the claims is denying this basic truth. Normally, one would expect a counter-argument to force its way into the discussion. But in this case the crimes were so horrific that right-thinking people were naturally wary of being seen to condone them. In fact, the reason I am writing this is that I am neither Asian nor Muslim nor Pakistani, so I cannot be accused of being in denial or trying to hide a painful truth. But I am of colour, and I know how racism works; and, more than that, I have a background in maths and science, so I know you can't extrapolate a tiny, flawed set of data and use it to make a sweeping generalisation.

I am also certain that, if the tables were turned and the victims were Asian or Muslim, we would have been subjected to equally skewed "expert" commentary asking: what is wrong with how Muslims raise girls? Why are so many of them on the streets at night? Shouldn't the community face up to its shocking moral breakdown?

While our media continue to exclude minority voices in general, such lazy racial generalisations are likely to continue. Even the story of a single Asian man acting alone in a sex case made the headlines. As in Derby this month, countless similar cases involving white men go unreported.

We have been here before, of course: in the 1950s, West Indian men were labelled pimps, luring innocent young white girls into prostitution. By the 1970s and 80s they were vilified as muggers and looters. And two years ago, Channel 4 ran stories, again based on a tiny set of data, claiming there was an endemic culture of gang rape in black communities. The victims weren't white, though, so media interest soon faded. It seems that these stories need to strike terror in the heart of white people for them to really take off.

What is also at play here is the inability of people, when learning about a different culture or race, to distinguish between the aberrations of a tiny minority within that group, and the normal behaviour of a significant section. Some examples are small in number but can be the tip of a much wider problem: eg, knife crime, which is literally the sharp end of a host of problems affecting black communities ranging from family breakdown, to poverty, to low school achievement and social exclusion.

But in Asia, Pakistan or Islam there is no culture of grooming or sex abuse – any more than there is anywhere else in the world – so the tiny number of cases have no cultural significance. Which means those who believe it, or perpetuate it, are succumbing to racism, much as they may protest. Exactly the same mistake was made after 9/11, when the actions of a tiny number of fanatics were used to cast aspersions against a 1.5 billion-strong community worldwide. Motives were questioned: are you with us or the terrorists? How fundamental are your beliefs? Can we trust you?

Imagine if, after Anders Breivik's carnage in Norway last year, which he claimed to be in defence of the Christian world, British people were repeatedly asked whether they supported him? Lumped together in the same white religious group as the killer and constantly told they must renounce him, or explain why we should believe that their type of Christianity – even if they were non-believers – is different from his. "It's nothing to do with me", most people would say. But somehow that answer was never good enough when given by Muslims over al-Qaida. And this hectoring was self-defeating because it caused only greater alienaton and resentment towards the west and, in particular, its foreign policies.

Ultimately, the urge to vilify groups of whom we know little may be very human, and helps us bond with those we feel are "like us". But if we are going to deal with the world as it is, and not as a cosy fantasyland where our group is racially and culturally supreme, we have to recognise when sweeping statements are false.

And if we truly care about the sexual exploitation of girls, we need to know that we must look at all communities, across the whole country, and not just at those that play to a smug sense of superiority about ourselves.

heppers75

3,135 posts

216 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Twincharge said:
Five of the eight men convicted of child sex abuse in Derby: Mark Adaoui, John Shaw,
Stefan Godfrey, Anthony Lambert and Ijaz Ahmed.



By now surely everyone knows the case of the eight men convicted of picking vulnerable underage girls off the streets, then plying them with drink and drugs before having sex with them. A shocking story. But maybe you haven't heard. Because these sex assaults did not take place in Rochdale, where a similar story led the news for days in May, but in Derby earlier this month. Fifteen girls aged 13 to 15, many of them in care, were preyed on by the men. And though they were not working as a gang, their methods were similar – often targeting children in care and luring them with, among other things, cuddly toys. But this time, of the eight predators, seven were white, not Asian. And the story made barely a ripple in the national media.

Of the daily papers, only the Guardian and the Times reported it. There was no commentary anywhere on how these crimes shine a light on British culture, or how middle-aged white men have to confront the deep flaws in their religious and ethnic identity. Yet that's exactly what played out following the conviction in May of the "Asian sex gang" in Rochdale, which made the front page of every national newspaper. Though analysis of the case focused on how big a factor was race, religion and culture, the unreported story is of how politicians and the media have created a new racial scapegoat. In fact, if anyone wants to study how racism begins, and creeps into the consciousness of an entire nation, they need look no further.

Imagine you were living in a town of 20,000 people – the size of, say, Penzance in Cornwall – and one day it was discovered that one of its residents had been involved in a sex crime. Would it be reasonable to say that the whole town had a cultural problem, that it needed to address the scourge – that anyone not doing so was part of a "conspiracy of silence"? But the intense interest in the Rochdale story arose from a January 2011 Times "scoop" that was based on the conviction of at most 50 British Pakistanis out of a total UK population of 1.2 million, just one in 24,000: one person per Penzance.

Make no mistake, the Rochdale crimes were vile, and those convicted deserve every year of their sentences. But where, amid all the commentary, was the evidence that this is a racial issue; that there's something inherently perverted about Muslim or Asian culture?

Even the Child Protection and Online Protection Centre (Ceop), which has also studied potential offenders who have not been convicted, has only identified 41 Asian gangs (of 230 in total) and 240 Asian individuals – and they are spread across the country. But, despite this, a new stereotype has taken hold: that a significant proportion of Asian men are groomers (and the rest of their communities know of it and keep silent).

But if it really is an "Asian" thing, how come Indians don't do it? If it's a "Pakistani" thing, how come an Afghan was convicted in the Rochdale case? And if it's a "Muslim" thing, how come it doesn't seem to involve anyone of African or Middle Eastern origin? The standard response to anyone who questions this is: face the facts, all those convicted in Rochdale were Muslim. Well, if one case is enough to make such a generalisation, how about if all the members of a gang of armed robbers were white; or cybercriminals; or child traffickers? (All three of these have happened.) Would we be so keen to "face the facts" and make it a problem the whole white community has to deal with? Would we have articles examining what it is about Britishness or Christianity or Europeanness, that makes people so capable of such things?

In fact, Penzance had not just one paedophile, but a gang of four. They abused 28 girls, some as young as five, and were finally convicted two years ago. All were white. And last month, at a home affairs select committee, deputy children's commissioner Sue Berelowitz quoted a police officer who had told her that "there isn't a town, village or hamlet in which children are not being sexually exploited".

Whatever the case, we know that abuse of white girls is not a cultural or religious issue because there is no longstanding history of it taking place in Asia or the Muslim world.

How did middle-aged Asian men from tight-knit communities even come into contact with white teenage girls in Rochdale? The main cultural relevance in this story is that vulnerable, often disturbed, young girls, regularly out late at night, often end up in late-closing restaurants and minicab offices, staffed almost exclusively by men. After a while, relationships build up, with the men offering free lifts and/or food. For those with a predatory instinct, sexual exploitation is an easy next step. This is an issue of what men can do when away from their own families and in a position of power over badly damaged young people.

It's a story repeated across Britain, by white and other ethnic groups: where the opportunity arises, some men will take advantage. The precise method, and whether it's an individual or group crime, depends on the particular setting – be they priests, youth workers or networks on the web.

Despite all we know about racism, genocide and ethnic cleansing, the Rochdale case showed how shockingly easy it is to demonise a community. Before long, the wider public will believe the problem is endemic within that race/religion, and that anyone within that group who rebuts the claims is denying this basic truth. Normally, one would expect a counter-argument to force its way into the discussion. But in this case the crimes were so horrific that right-thinking people were naturally wary of being seen to condone them. In fact, the reason I am writing this is that I am neither Asian nor Muslim nor Pakistani, so I cannot be accused of being in denial or trying to hide a painful truth. But I am of colour, and I know how racism works; and, more than that, I have a background in maths and science, so I know you can't extrapolate a tiny, flawed set of data and use it to make a sweeping generalisation.

I am also certain that, if the tables were turned and the victims were Asian or Muslim, we would have been subjected to equally skewed "expert" commentary asking: what is wrong with how Muslims raise girls? Why are so many of them on the streets at night? Shouldn't the community face up to its shocking moral breakdown?

While our media continue to exclude minority voices in general, such lazy racial generalisations are likely to continue. Even the story of a single Asian man acting alone in a sex case made the headlines. As in Derby this month, countless similar cases involving white men go unreported.

We have been here before, of course: in the 1950s, West Indian men were labelled pimps, luring innocent young white girls into prostitution. By the 1970s and 80s they were vilified as muggers and looters. And two years ago, Channel 4 ran stories, again based on a tiny set of data, claiming there was an endemic culture of gang rape in black communities. The victims weren't white, though, so media interest soon faded. It seems that these stories need to strike terror in the heart of white people for them to really take off.

What is also at play here is the inability of people, when learning about a different culture or race, to distinguish between the aberrations of a tiny minority within that group, and the normal behaviour of a significant section. Some examples are small in number but can be the tip of a much wider problem: eg, knife crime, which is literally the sharp end of a host of problems affecting black communities ranging from family breakdown, to poverty, to low school achievement and social exclusion.

But in Asia, Pakistan or Islam there is no culture of grooming or sex abuse – any more than there is anywhere else in the world – so the tiny number of cases have no cultural significance. Which means those who believe it, or perpetuate it, are succumbing to racism, much as they may protest. Exactly the same mistake was made after 9/11, when the actions of a tiny number of fanatics were used to cast aspersions against a 1.5 billion-strong community worldwide. Motives were questioned: are you with us or the terrorists? How fundamental are your beliefs? Can we trust you?

Imagine if, after Anders Breivik's carnage in Norway last year, which he claimed to be in defence of the Christian world, British people were repeatedly asked whether they supported him? Lumped together in the same white religious group as the killer and constantly told they must renounce him, or explain why we should believe that their type of Christianity – even if they were non-believers – is different from his. "It's nothing to do with me", most people would say. But somehow that answer was never good enough when given by Muslims over al-Qaida. And this hectoring was self-defeating because it caused only greater alienaton and resentment towards the west and, in particular, its foreign policies.

Ultimately, the urge to vilify groups of whom we know little may be very human, and helps us bond with those we feel are "like us". But if we are going to deal with the world as it is, and not as a cosy fantasyland where our group is racially and culturally supreme, we have to recognise when sweeping statements are false.

And if we truly care about the sexual exploitation of girls, we need to know that we must look at all communities, across the whole country, and not just at those that play to a smug sense of superiority about ourselves.
Nice selective take on that case...

Now read the rest of the names involved in that case here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-11... and then explain to us, as you seem to want to use this one as an objective example, why a community which as a very low single digit representation in this country makes up many many many multiples of that percentage in this case; as well as it seems all of the others finding their way to the media?

ETA - I am also in the process of some more web searching on this but it also appears the white scum (as yes they are as well!) involved in this were not the ones facing the sexual charges as well - will confirm shortly.

Actually wrong case sorry... However what is interesting is if you read up on this that the men did not know each other and were using the services of what were essentially underage prostitutes. Which is reprehensible but not the kind of crime being discussed on here I don't think. If you Google Operation Kern there are some details on this case.

The other one I found was actually another gang similar to the ones we have already seen and that was related to Operation Retriever.

ETA - Again... Oh the very interesting thing is it seems Kern followed on from Retriever and the orchestrators of the girls being on the game were the scum locked up in Operation Retriever - http://www.derbyscb.org.uk/docs/DerbySCB-Kern-Lear...

So those responsible for them being on the game were seemingly all of one community and then the 'end users' were also caught so out of that whole sorry story it seems out of 20+ involved half a dozen or so were white and the remainder not and those that were not were also the creators and orchestrators of the whole affair.

I have to say you picked a cracking example there to make your point with.

One more edit and I swear final- God knows next time I will finish my web research before posting so apologies... Twincharge I seriously hope you just badly researched this as it took me less than ten minutes to do the legwork on Google I just posted in haste.. I so sincerely hope you did not use the images of more white guys than Asian guys along with your very eloquent language just to try and make some facile point, just to try and defend this once more as that would be pretty f**king bad!

Edited by heppers75 on Monday 1st September 18:56


Edited by heppers75 on Monday 1st September 19:11


Edited by heppers75 on Monday 1st September 20:20

andymc

7,334 posts

206 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Another apologist, there seems to be a pattern to this and its no wonder the communities protected/failed to vilify these gangs as they were white girls late at night "asking for it"

andymc

7,334 posts

206 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Twincharge said:
Five of the eight men convicted of child sex abuse in Derby: Mark Adaoui, John Shaw,
Stefan Godfrey, Anthony Lambert and Ijaz Ahmed.



By now surely everyone knows the case of the eight men convicted of picking vulnerable underage girls off the streets, then plying them with drink and drugs before having sex with them. A shocking story. But maybe you haven't heard. Because these sex assaults did not take place in Rochdale, where a similar story led the news for days in May, but in Derby earlier this month. Fifteen girls aged 13 to 15, many of them in care, were preyed on by the men. And though they were not working as a gang, their methods were similar – often targeting children in care and luring them with, among other things, cuddly toys. But this time, of the eight predators, seven were white, not Asian. And the story made barely a ripple in the national media.

Of the daily papers, only the Guardian and the Times reported it. There was no commentary anywhere on how these crimes shine a light on British culture, or how middle-aged white men have to confront the deep flaws in their religious and ethnic identity. Yet that's exactly what played out following the conviction in May of the "Asian sex gang" in Rochdale, which made the front page of every national newspaper. Though analysis of the case focused on how big a factor was race, religion and culture, the unreported story is of how politicians and the media have created a new racial scapegoat. In fact, if anyone wants to study how racism begins, and creeps into the consciousness of an entire nation, they need look no further.

Imagine you were living in a town of 20,000 people – the size of, say, Penzance in Cornwall – and one day it was discovered that one of its residents had been involved in a sex crime. Would it be reasonable to say that the whole town had a cultural problem, that it needed to address the scourge – that anyone not doing so was part of a "conspiracy of silence"? But the intense interest in the Rochdale story arose from a January 2011 Times "scoop" that was based on the conviction of at most 50 British Pakistanis out of a total UK population of 1.2 million, just one in 24,000: one person per Penzance.

Make no mistake, the Rochdale crimes were vile, and those convicted deserve every year of their sentences. But where, amid all the commentary, was the evidence that this is a racial issue; that there's something inherently perverted about Muslim or Asian culture?

Even the Child Protection and Online Protection Centre (Ceop), which has also studied potential offenders who have not been convicted, has only identified 41 Asian gangs (of 230 in total) and 240 Asian individuals – and they are spread across the country. But, despite this, a new stereotype has taken hold: that a significant proportion of Asian men are groomers (and the rest of their communities know of it and keep silent).

But if it really is an "Asian" thing, how come Indians don't do it? If it's a "Pakistani" thing, how come an Afghan was convicted in the Rochdale case? And if it's a "Muslim" thing, how come it doesn't seem to involve anyone of African or Middle Eastern origin? The standard response to anyone who questions this is: face the facts, all those convicted in Rochdale were Muslim. Well, if one case is enough to make such a generalisation, how about if all the members of a gang of armed robbers were white; or cybercriminals; or child traffickers? (All three of these have happened.) Would we be so keen to "face the facts" and make it a problem the whole white community has to deal with? Would we have articles examining what it is about Britishness or Christianity or Europeanness, that makes people so capable of such things?

In fact, Penzance had not just one paedophile, but a gang of four. They abused 28 girls, some as young as five, and were finally convicted two years ago. All were white. And last month, at a home affairs select committee, deputy children's commissioner Sue Berelowitz quoted a police officer who had told her that "there isn't a town, village or hamlet in which children are not being sexually exploited".

Whatever the case, we know that abuse of white girls is not a cultural or religious issue because there is no longstanding history of it taking place in Asia or the Muslim world.

How did middle-aged Asian men from tight-knit communities even come into contact with white teenage girls in Rochdale? The main cultural relevance in this story is that vulnerable, often disturbed, young girls, regularly out late at night, often end up in late-closing restaurants and minicab offices, staffed almost exclusively by men. After a while, relationships build up, with the men offering free lifts and/or food. For those with a predatory instinct, sexual exploitation is an easy next step. This is an issue of what men can do when away from their own families and in a position of power over badly damaged young people.

It's a story repeated across Britain, by white and other ethnic groups: where the opportunity arises, some men will take advantage. The precise method, and whether it's an individual or group crime, depends on the particular setting – be they priests, youth workers or networks on the web.

Despite all we know about racism, genocide and ethnic cleansing, the Rochdale case showed how shockingly easy it is to demonise a community. Before long, the wider public will believe the problem is endemic within that race/religion, and that anyone within that group who rebuts the claims is denying this basic truth. Normally, one would expect a counter-argument to force its way into the discussion. But in this case the crimes were so horrific that right-thinking people were naturally wary of being seen to condone them. In fact, the reason I am writing this is that I am neither Asian nor Muslim nor Pakistani, so I cannot be accused of being in denial or trying to hide a painful truth. But I am of colour, and I know how racism works; and, more than that, I have a background in maths and science, so I know you can't extrapolate a tiny, flawed set of data and use it to make a sweeping generalisation.

I am also certain that, if the tables were turned and the victims were Asian or Muslim, we would have been subjected to equally skewed "expert" commentary asking: what is wrong with how Muslims raise girls? Why are so many of them on the streets at night? Shouldn't the community face up to its shocking moral breakdown?

While our media continue to exclude minority voices in general, such lazy racial generalisations are likely to continue. Even the story of a single Asian man acting alone in a sex case made the headlines. As in Derby this month, countless similar cases involving white men go unreported.

We have been here before, of course: in the 1950s, West Indian men were labelled pimps, luring innocent young white girls into prostitution. By the 1970s and 80s they were vilified as muggers and looters. And two years ago, Channel 4 ran stories, again based on a tiny set of data, claiming there was an endemic culture of gang rape in black communities. The victims weren't white, though, so media interest soon faded. It seems that these stories need to strike terror in the heart of white people for them to really take off.

What is also at play here is the inability of people, when learning about a different culture or race, to distinguish between the aberrations of a tiny minority within that group, and the normal behaviour of a significant section. Some examples are small in number but can be the tip of a much wider problem: eg, knife crime, which is literally the sharp end of a host of problems affecting black communities ranging from family breakdown, to poverty, to low school achievement and social exclusion.

But in Asia, Pakistan or Islam there is no culture of grooming or sex abuse – any more than there is anywhere else in the world – so the tiny number of cases have no cultural significance. Which means those who believe it, or perpetuate it, are succumbing to racism, much as they may protest. Exactly the same mistake was made after 9/11, when the actions of a tiny number of fanatics were used to cast aspersions against a 1.5 billion-strong community worldwide. Motives were questioned: are you with us or the terrorists? How fundamental are your beliefs? Can we trust you?

Imagine if, after Anders Breivik's carnage in Norway last year, which he claimed to be in defence of the Christian world, British people were repeatedly asked whether they supported him? Lumped together in the same white religious group as the killer and constantly told they must renounce him, or explain why we should believe that their type of Christianity – even if they were non-believers – is different from his. "It's nothing to do with me", most people would say. But somehow that answer was never good enough when given by Muslims over al-Qaida. And this hectoring was self-defeating because it caused only greater alienaton and resentment towards the west and, in particular, its foreign policies.

Ultimately, the urge to vilify groups of whom we know little may be very human, and helps us bond with those we feel are "like us". But if we are going to deal with the world as it is, and not as a cosy fantasyland where our group is racially and culturally supreme, we have to recognise when sweeping statements are false.

And if we truly care about the sexual exploitation of girls, we need to know that we must look at all communities, across the whole country, and not just at those that play to a smug sense of superiority about ourselves.
Abid Mohammed Saddique, 27, and Mohammed Romaan Liaqat, 28 - both married with children - were said to be the leaders of the gang.

25NAD90TUL

666 posts

130 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
I happen to have some knowledge of the Quran.

In Islam a girl child is considered ready for marriage on appearance of their first period.

The prophet Mohammed maried Ayesha at age 6, but then he did wait...The marriage was consummated at age 9.

Now if the men in question came up with the defence that they were attempting to convert the girls to Islam by their actions, that would be perfectly acceptable behaviour according to the book.

Dunno if that has any bearing on this.

I'm not racist at all, I know when it comes to crimes of this nature that the type of men involved are opportunists, whatever their race.

Now it just so happens that these type of girls, vulnerable, cold, hungry, desperate for attention, aren't going to wander into your car body repair shop at 3pm.

They are going to be in late night takeaways, hungry, cold etc at 3am though, same with taxi-ranks, 'can I sit in your taxi mister and get warm?' 'How many chips can I get for 23p?'

I think men who are driven in that way will take opportunities as they present themselves whatever their race, I've known plenty of 'questionable' white men with very little in the way of a 'moral compass' plenty in the rock 'n' roll business. With late-night taxis and takeaways it is a fact that where there are large populations of Pakistani men, they do tend to work in these industries. As stated the girls are hardly likely to wander into your business that closes at 5pm.

A lot of problems come about because of this 'honour' bs. Not wanting the dis-honour of this on their family (who would?) can lead to perverting the course of justice, not wanting to bring public attention to it even though they may be appalled by it, councillors pulling strings to not bring the shame on the extended family of a 'perp'.

Myself if it was my own brother I'd want him done, shamed, probably castrated, certainly ostracised, sharing a name doesn't mean you share the shame...

Or does it? Clearly in the eyes of some communities it does.

don4l

10,058 posts

175 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
Spanglepants said:
Why were they not allowed to call the police?

don4l said:
It is beginning to look that way.

She said that it was completely visible. Sometimes men would come into the classroom and remove a girl. The teachers knew some of the men and which girls they were looking for. Sometimes they would see a man approaching and they would hide the girl in a cupboard, and claim that she hadn't come to school that day.The teachers were not allowed to call the police.
She told me that social services were worse than useless. Everything was governed by political correctness. The teachers were utterly demoralised by their inability to do anything.
I don't know. The conversation got interrupted when other people joined us. Also, I was quite shocked. Afterwards, I thought of loads of questions that I should have asked.

I got the impression that she was not allowed to call the police because of the racial element.

I should be seeing her again this coming weekend - so I will report back next week.


don4l

10,058 posts

175 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
An independent inquiry into the actions of South Yorkshire police has just been announced.

About time too!

Also, 4 Labour party members in Rotheram have been suspended.

I am really surprised that it is taking so long to see any action.

Cliff Richard's home was publicly searched on the say-so of a single individual. Why have there not been more arrests in Rotheram?

It's all very depressing.

FiF

43,964 posts

250 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
A look at the statistics, such as they are, from fullfact.org.

Health warning possible significant under reporting noted.


https://fullfact.org/crime/sex_offender_asian_whit...

Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
More arrests

Child sex arrests following Thames Valley Police raids
Eight men have been arrested during dawn raids related to child sexual exploitation.

Thames Valley Police said 120 officers had raided 10 properties - six in Aylesbury, one in Milton Keynes, one in Buckingham, one in Chesham and one in Middlesex - at 07:00 BST.

The men, aged between 28 and 45, are in police custody.

The offences relate to two female victims in the Aylesbury area between 2005 and 2012.

A number of warrants are still being carried out, a force spokesman said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-he...

FiF

43,964 posts

250 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
Home Office researcher told never ever to speak of their 2001 findings in Rotherham and sent on diversity course. Council tried to get researcher sacked.

Council denying all knowledge of raid on Risky Business project. South Yorkshire Police pissing in same pot.

Not satisfied until see some very public firings on this. Speaking personally.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11069...

PRTVR

7,073 posts

220 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
FiF said:
Home Office researcher told never ever to speak of their 2001 findings in Rotherham and sent on diversity course. Council tried to get researcher sacked.

Council denying all knowledge of raid on Risky Business project. South Yorkshire Police pissing in same pot.

Not satisfied until see some very public firings on this. Speaking personally.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11069...
I think there will be a lot of shredding going on, along with a lot of deleted of e-mails.

simes43

196 posts

232 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
The Channel 4 programme last night offered a grotesque insight into how children
are used and abused in parts of Pakistan. Little boys this time.

Nasty business.

don4l

10,058 posts

175 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
FiF said:
Home Office researcher told never ever to speak of their 2001 findings in Rotherham and sent on diversity course. Council tried to get researcher sacked.

Council denying all knowledge of raid on Risky Business project. South Yorkshire Police pissing in same pot.

Not satisfied until see some very public firings on this. Speaking personally.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11069...
So, up until a couple of months ago, there were only 10 officers investigating 1400 sex abuse/ child prostitution cases. I wonder how many officers wete assigned to the Dave Lee Travis case?

Heads need to roll. In fact, I suspect that some officials have committed criminal acts.