another abuse gang

[Mermaid]

carinaman said:

Third, Fourth and Fifth paragraphs:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/30/rot...

The tragedy is many of the perpetrators will use the non action as a defence to their actions. Change the law, castration an option for such offences - do everyone a favour.

[heppers75]

So now Buckinghamshire...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-hert...

[heppers75]

Also just out of interest is there a take from those that seem to not wish to see a particular demographic concerned in respect of 'abuse gangs' targeted based on, amongst other avenues their belief system and ethnicity - which quite possibly form a part of their rationale for their crimes. Do they believe that it would be equally unfair or not right to investigate/target "Eastern European Gypsies" on the likes of this issue based on the same rationale?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/arts-ents/tv-radio/t...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2741917/...

Or does their disagreement, outrage, indignation and/or plain denial in some cases as well as round the houses calls of racism and religious persecution only come into play when it is perhaps focused closer to home?

Edited by heppers75 on Thursday 4th September 07:59

[FiF]

Taxi driver is a notifiable occupation ffs. At least the mayor who had vouched for him resigned.


http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-hert...

[tenpenceshort]

heppers75 said:

Also just out of interest is there a take from those that seem to not wish to see a particular demographic concerned in respect of the abuse gangs targeted based on amongst other avenues their belief system and ethnicity which quite possibly form a part of their rationale for their crimes also believe that it would be equally unfair or not right to investigate/target "Eastern European Gypsies" on the likes of this issue based on the same rationale?

Did you just throw some random words together hoping something would happen, or is the above really supposed to be comprehensible in your eyes?

Could you kindly try again in English, please?

[heppers75]

tenpenceshort said:

heppers75 said:

Also just out of interest is there a take from those that seem to not wish to see a particular demographic concerned in respect of the abuse gangs targeted based on amongst other avenues their belief system and ethnicity which quite possibly form a part of their rationale for their crimes also believe that it would be equally unfair or not right to investigate/target "Eastern European Gypsies" on the likes of this issue based on the same rationale?

Did you just throw some random words together hoping something would happen, or is the above really supposed to be comprehensible in your eyes?

Could you kindly try again in English, please?

My usual long sentence with no punctuation, it is however quite understandable. I will punctuate it for you once I am I the office. Typed in haste on the train.

ETA - There you go: -

Also just out of interest is there a take from those that seem to not wish to see a particular demographic concerned in respect of 'abuse gangs' targeted based on, amongst other avenues their belief system and ethnicity - which quite possibly form a part of their rationale for their crimes. Do they believe that it would be equally unfair or not right to investigate/target "Eastern European Gypsies" on the likes of this issue based on the same rationale?

Just out of interest TPS do you have an actual opinion and or point in this discussion or have you just popped up to make as far as I can see in the last few pages an AK47 / PH sticker quip and a comment on grammar?

Edited by heppers75 on Thursday 4th September 08:04

[Countdown]

heppers75 said:

So do you or do you not agree that the facts that are currently in play across the nation it would seem point to an issue within a certain demographic and that whilst there are other issue in play which include socio economic, educational, political correctness gone mad and failings within the authorities; that the fact that these men also seem to disproportionately share a religious persuasion and ethnic background should also be a factor that is considered?

I agree completely.

The question I'm trying to ask is what could have or should have been done that wasn't done (and by whom)? For example apparently teachers knew what was going on, socials ervices knew (or suspected), the Police knew (or suspected). So why did it continue for so long? If it's due to some perverse "PC gone mad" then these attitudes need to be exposed

Like the Savile case it appears in hindsight that lots of people knew, or suspected, and yet somehow no action was taken. Surely, in order to stop those happening again, we need to know where the system failed?

In relation to the "asian community" reporting these people I'm sure there were some who knew what was going on and, IMO, they're as guilty as the perpetrators who did it. But I disagree with the idea that the "wider" community knew what was going on. We all live in communities. Do we all know who the criminals are? We may suspect that so-and-so is dodgy - do we report them to the Police solely on the basis that we think they're "dodgy"?

The point I'm trying to make is - you need to have some evidence or basis for reporting people. The only people who really knew about these crimes were the criminals themselves, Pakistani paedophiles don't advertise what they're doing any more than paedophiles from other backgrounds.

And before the usual "apologist" crap is spouted let me be clear - I'm as disgusted as anybody else about this. If it was down to me I'd make sure they were publicly castrated. However, short of doing this to every Pakistani taxi driver under the age of 40 "just in case" we need to see what needs to be done to stop it happening again.

Given how long ago this was first raised how tf can this still be happening?

[Countdown]

simes43 said:

The teachers would have been told to stay quiet, risk jeopardising their career or worse. But you already know that, hence my exasperated response above.

I'd like to think that, if I'd been one of those teachers I would have made sure it was raised, one way or another, and fk the risks to my job. I'd be surprised if anybody on here would have stayed quiet, quite frankly.

[Digga]

Countdown said:

In relation to the "asian community" reporting these people I'm sure there were some who knew what was going on and, IMO, they're as guilty as the perpetrators who did it. But I disagree with the idea that the "wider" community knew what was going on. We all live in communities. Do we all know who the criminals are? We may suspect that so-and-so is dodgy - do we report them to the Police solely on the basis that we think they're "dodgy"?

I have to agree on this. Yes I am sure there were those who were not directly invloved but either knew or had very strong suspicions that something very wrong was happening, but the vast majority of people barely know their neighbours or, in many cases, their own immediate family very well. To expect someone to have a handle on everyone around them is a bit Stasi.

A great example of this is a house just a few hundred yards down the road from Digga snr, which outwardly looked no different to the other detached, middle class properties in the neighbourhood and whose inhabitants themselves no different to any others. Mum & Dad jog every morning around sixish and one morning a few years back, the scene was chaos as the police raided this house. Turns out they were involved in a major fraud, convicted this year, but no one would ever have guessed.

Countdown said:

Given how long ago this was first raised how tf can this still be happening?

Quite. It is a national disgrace and a very said indictment of the establishment.

[don4l]

Countdown said:

simes43 said:

The teachers would have been told to stay quiet, risk jeopardising their career or worse. But you already know that, hence my exasperated response above.

I'd like to think that, if I'd been one of those teachers I would have made sure it was raised, one way or another, and fk the risks to my job. I'd be surprised if anybody on here would have stayed quiet, quite frankly.

The teachers who tried to raise the issue were forced to attend "Diversity Awareness" courses.

It would appear that the benefits of multiculturism outweighed the safety of a few (thousand) girls.

[Transmitter Man]

carinaman said:

Third, Fourth and Fifth paragraphs:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/30/rot...

I feel for her struggles.

It just shows you how bloody blinkered, mostly on purpose MP's of all persuasions are.

And as for Livingstone, I've never understood what anyone can see in the left wing, smimy bar-steward and feel sorry for anyone that's ever voted for him. He reminds me of all those communist leaning union leaders who have zero interest in their electorate but are on missions to drag this country back to the 70's.

Bloody hell, rant off.

Phil

[irocfan]

heppers75 said:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/arts-ents/tv-radio/t...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2741917/...

There has to be a scriptwriter on these things to reel-in 'out-raged of Tunnbridge Wells/PH' since I can't believe that people would be dumb enough to admit to theft/fraud/paedophilia on national idiot box (well actually I can believe that peeps are stupid enough to admit) and that the bib/SS aren't on that case at once. It would appear to be a 'slam-dunk' case admission of guilt with no coercion, no need for hours upon hours of investigative work etc. Let's face it if people can be done for being idiots on youtube surely nation TV would be easy?

[heppers75]

Countdown said:

I agree completely.

The question I'm trying to ask is what could have or should have been done that wasn't done (and by whom)? For example apparently teachers knew what was going on, socials ervices knew (or suspected), the Police knew (or suspected). So why did it continue for so long? If it's due to some perverse "PC gone mad" then these attitudes need to be exposed

Like the Savile case it appears in hindsight that lots of people knew, or suspected, and yet somehow no action was taken. Surely, in order to stop those happening again, we need to know where the system failed?

In relation to the "asian community" reporting these people I'm sure there were some who knew what was going on and, IMO, they're as guilty as the perpetrators who did it. But I disagree with the idea that the "wider" community knew what was going on. We all live in communities. Do we all know who the criminals are? We may suspect that so-and-so is dodgy - do we report them to the Police solely on the basis that we think they're "dodgy"?

The point I'm trying to make is - you need to have some evidence or basis for reporting people. The only people who really knew about these crimes were the criminals themselves, Pakistani paedophiles don't advertise what they're doing any more than paedophiles from other backgrounds.

And before the usual "apologist" crap is spouted let me be clear - I'm as disgusted as anybody else about this. If it was down to me I'd make sure they were publicly castrated. However, short of doing this to every Pakistani taxi driver under the age of 40 "just in case" we need to see what needs to be done to stop it happening again.

Given how long ago this was first raised how tf can this still be happening?

So there have been several pieces I have read including one posted below with worrying statements like: -

So she asked a friend, a Muslim councillor of Pakistani heritage, to approach the elders at the mosque with a list of 35 names and addresses of the alleged perpetrators. "He said to the imams, 'Ann Cryer would like you to go around to these families and explain that this behaviour is totally un-Islamic.' But the upshot was that the elders allegedly said, 'Go back to Ann Cryer and tell her it's nothing to do with us.' "

That is not by any stretch the only time that kind of response and statement has been made and if needs be I will spend some time digging back out others - I would hope at this point that would not be necessary. But it is far from true to say the only people that knew were the criminals themselves. Also whilst the establishment has a significant brunt to bear, can we please not lose sight of the fact that before any complicity, blind eye turning or denial to take place there has to be the act itself. I have always liked the phrase - For evil to triumph all that is required is for good men to do nothing - But evil still has to exist, I think many peoples concern is why does that evil seemingly exist so predominately inside one distinct community and in turn why do so many from that community even with the weight of evidence being presented still wish to deny it is a factor - FWIW I don't think you are for the most part at least?

Essentially like it as not there are plenty of examples of the wider communities they lived in turning a blind eye as well as the PC gone mad brigade establishment morons as well.

[Mermaid]

Countdown said:

In relation to the "asian community" reporting these people I'm sure there were some who knew what was going on and, IMO, they're as guilty as the perpetrators who did it. But I disagree with the idea that the "wider" community knew what was going on. We all live in communities. Do we all know who the criminals are? We may suspect that so-and-so is dodgy - do we report them to the Police solely on the basis that we think they're "dodgy"?

The point I'm trying to make is - you need to have some evidence or basis for reporting people. The only people who really knew about these crimes were the criminals themselves, Pakistani paedophiles don't advertise what they're doing any more than paedophiles from other backgrounds.

And before the usual "apologist" crap is spouted let me be clear - I'm as disgusted as anybody else about this. If it was down to me I'd make sure they were publicly castrated. However, short of doing this to every Pakistani taxi driver under the age of 40 "just in case" we need to see what needs to be done to stop it happening again.

Given how long ago this was first raised how tf can this still be happening?

It is a Pakistani issue, mainly. Not Asian. Don't you think?

The Pakistani is unlike other communities - very close knit (a very large percentage of them close to each other and why we have the 'ghettos") , and the Mosque keeps them together. This sort of crime would probably have been bragged about, and not all who were offered services would have accepted. So many more were in direct knowledge of what was going on - and not just the criminals.

CD - castrating all Pakistani drivers is a bit extreme , but ALL taxi drivers should go through more thorough vetting.

It is only going on because the "community" has been at ease with this, and those in authority were bullied effectively.

Has it stopped? Reduced certainly. Need to flush out all the bad apples now, and then move on,

[FiF]

Mermaid said:

but ALL taxi drivers should go through more thorough vetting.

How many more times do I have to write this?

Taxi driving is a notifiable occupation.

TAXI AND PRIVATE HIRE VEHICLE LICENSING: BEST PRACTICE GUIDANCE

Note badges and licences must be reviewed at least every three years and Enhanced CRB check for work with children and vulnerable.

Hackney Carriage (Taxi) & Private Hire Vehicle (PHV) Licensing Policy of Guidance on Relevance of Convictions

Of course the fly in the ointment is if never prosecuted then a clean record. But the point is that imvho if complaints against individual firms and drivers is known to the council, as it was, then to continue to allow the badge holders to work, and give them fresh approvals is criminally negligent.

[Twincharge]

Mermaid said:

It is a Pakistani issue, mainly. Not Asian. Don't you think?

The Pakistani is unlike other communities - very close knit (a very large percentage of them close to each other and why we have the 'ghettos") , and the Mosque keeps them together. This sort of crime would probably have been bragged about, and not all who were offered services would have accepted. So many more were in direct knowledge of what was going on - and not just the criminals.

CD - castrating all Pakistani drivers is a bit extreme , but ALL taxi drivers should go through more thorough vetting.

It is only going on because the "community" has been at ease with this, and those in authority were bullied effectively.

Has it stopped? Reduced certainly. Need to flush out all the bad apples now, and then move on,

Of course it's a Pakistani issue, right now, but not exclusively. I would argue that the authorities appalling failings to deal with this matter only gave the abusers a green light to offend more.

I still cannot understand why no one acted, I would risk everything to save a child if I knew they were being abused. There are many ways to bring these matters to the front.

It takes a certain kind of person to do such a horrible thing, I'm sure to be of Pakistani descent is not the only requirement. One thing is for sure, this is neither a religion thing, or cultural. We are talking about a group of vile beasts who have been hiding within a community, and ignored by authorities.

I'm not sure why everyone thinks the community in question knew what was going on. Perhaps it is because of the snippet that heppers posted;

heppers75 said:

So she asked a friend, a Muslim councillor of Pakistani heritage, to approach the elders at the mosque with a list of 35 names and addresses of the alleged perpetrators. "He said to the imams, 'Ann Cryer would like you to go around to these families and explain that this behaviour is totally un-Islamic.' But the upshot was that the elders allegedly said, 'Go back to Ann Cryer and tell her it's nothing to do with us.'?"

Is this a Councillors job though? We are talking about men raping children, not parking in front of peoples driveways. This was a massive failing on the authorities part.

To expect a Councillor, to knock on 35 doors and announce 'Excuse me, is the Pakistani taxi-driving abuser at home please?' is plain ridiculous. This should have always been a job for the Police.

The Pakistani community is not as close knit as you may think, but they do, as with all communities, unite to protect themselves when under attack.

Mermaid said:

The Pakistani is unlike other communities - very close knit (a very large percentage of them close to each other and why we have the 'ghettos") , and the Mosque keeps them together. This sort of crime would probably have been bragged about, and not all who were offered services would have accepted. So many more were in direct knowledge of what was going on - and not just the criminals.

This statement really made me chuckle. You really have absolute no idea, you are basically spouting rubbish.

The Mosque keeps them together? I doubt that, people don't even talk in a mosque, it is prohibited to engage in social conversation. The Mosque is a mystery for the new young generation of Pakistani's. They have absolute no interest in it. Probably because the Imam does not speak in their language (i.e. English, and no longer in touch with the real world). I understand how they feel. I went to a Mosque once with a work friend to experience it. It was quite peaceful, just a shame I could not understand what the Imam was saying. That happens when you do not speak the national language, you exclude people. When my friend complained to the Imam, the response he got was 'Well no one has ever complained before? I'm not going to change for one person?'.

Such ignorance, the Mosque's need British born, educated Imams.

They were bragging about being kiddy fiddlers? Really? You really believe they were bragging about it and everyone knew? Surreal.

Remember poor Shafilea Ahmed? I remember her coming to my club when I used to play the piano. I also remember her father, a couple of times he picked me up in his taxi. I always thought what a unpleasant, unhinged character he was. He was not a religious man, and always seemed capable of violence to me. So, when the news emerged that his daughter had been found dead, I always knew he was responsible. I just knew it.

I was elated when he was convicted along with his wife, eventually. Up until that point, the local community was convinced of his innocence? Why? Because he always maintained so, swore on it, and never 'bragged' about it.

Edited by Twincharge on Thursday 4th September 11:18

[Bill]

Twincharge said:

heppers75 said:

So she asked a friend, a Muslim councillor of Pakistani heritage, to approach the elders at the mosque with a list of 35 names and addresses of the alleged perpetrators. "He said to the imams, 'Ann Cryer would like you to go around to these families and explain that this behaviour is totally un-Islamic.' But the upshot was that the elders allegedly said, 'Go back to Ann Cryer and tell her it's nothing to do with us.'?"

Is this a Councillors job though? We are talking about men raping children, not parking in front of peoples driveways. This was a massive failing on the authorities part.

To expect a Councillor, to knock on 35 doors and announce 'Excuse me, is the Pakistani taxi-driving abuser at home please?' is plain ridiculous. This should have always been a job for the Police.

I think the idea is that the Imam should have gone round. But your point stands. The perpetrators may well not be regular mosque goers, and even if they are, should the imam be doing the police's job? Isn't that verging on shariah law??

Trying to blame this on "the community" is distracting from the massive failure of the authorities IMO.

[Countdown]

Bill said:

I think the idea is that the Imam should have gone round. But your point stands. The perpetrators may well not be regular mosque goers, and even if they are, should the imam be doing the police's job? Isn't that verging on shariah law??

Trying to blame this on "the community" is distracting from the massive failure of the authorities IMO.

With regards to the Ann Cryer informing a Councillor and the Councillor speaking to the "Elders" of the Mosque – firstly these "elders" don't have any particular power or control over anybody in the "Community", let alone a bunch of paedophiles. They’re the same as your church wardens or the local branch of the Women’s Institute, or the Hospice Committee. Them “speaking” to paedophiles in order to try and stop them would be about as effective as using a chocolate fireguard.

Secondly – would any of us be prepared to go up to criminals and ask them to stop? If you live in any large town/city you’ll see people who are obviously dealing drugs, or pimping women etc. How many of us stop the car, get out, and try to stop them? We don’t because, more often than not, we’re probably going to get a good kicking, if not worse. In which case how is it reasonable to expect a group of elderly religious people to do the same?


With due respect why was Ms Cryer asking the Councillor to speak to the “Elders”? Why didn’t she go directly to the Police and ask them to do something about it? The crime had already been committed – the people on the list should have been arrested, questioned, and where necessary prosecuted.

p.s. this vision of the Pakistani “community” being some kind of close-knit homogeneous entity may have applied to the first and second generation of immigrants. It is far less close-knit now.

[Twincharge]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Sadly, I believe this is probably true. It is my belief that most of the Imams in the mosques in the UK are completely out of touch with what goes on outside the mosque. Most of them have only been in the UK for a handful of years, although well versed in the Koran and Arabic, are completely illiterate.

Like I said, we need some educated British born Imams in the mosque.

Have you ever ventured into a mosque? Curious? I was, and so went. It was not the sinister, closed environment many deem it to be. Quite the opposite, very open and welcoming.

[fido]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

And you can do that because the whole organisation works for you in this way.

But let's replace 'muslims' or 'Pakistanis' with 'BBC employees' [Saville] or 'priests' [Catholic Church] and you can see how easily people can get away abuse for years without facing punishment - note that in both these cases no one would dare say anything because the organisations involved do not have an effective whistleblowing policy - so no one will put their head above the parapet - and can you blame them?

The numbers in these new cases are shocking but quite irrelevant - no one close to the abusers is going to say anything, no one from their families are going to shop them, so then you're left with outside observers [council - did absolutely nothing or covered it up, police - unwilling to get involved, random person who suspects something is going on - it probably was reported on a few occasions but got nowhere, seeing as even the victims themselves were ignored].

So even though it's emotive to scream at the religious/community leaders to do something, I really think we're blaming the wrong people - in the same way you wouldn't blame Esther Rantzen [for example] or Catholic priests for abuse in their respective organisations. IMO the buck stops with the council leaders and politicians who hushed it up - they should stand before an enquiry.

Edited by fido on Thursday 4th September 12:31