another abuse gang

[magnum555]

heppers75 said:

magnum555 said:

heppers75 said:

magnum555 said:

This is the only way forward to discuss directly with the communities and not label communities for crimes that are committed by a small minority.

Im not defending anyone but the continually targeting and isolation of a community will achieve nothing but problems.

So you do acknowledge that their is a problem in your community as well as others then and it needs to be addressed?

"my community" what are you talking about? I'm not a representative of any community do you understand that?

To the community that I am assuming (perhaps wrongly if so I do apologise) that you are a member of.

I am assuming that as your somewhat irrational at times defence of the issue leads to the logical conclusion you are a member of one of the communities being focused on as having this issue.

I am defending the labeling of a single community for crimes committed by a small minority of people. I would expect anyone who is not prejudice to hold such a view for any community. You cannot go round labeling and pointing the fingers at any community it will create more problems.

The job of tackling any crime must be the responsibility of the authorities. Saying communities need to self police is totally unreasonable and unacceptable.

[s1962a]

blindswelledrat said:

To ask a different question:
Do you consider the large scale raping that took place in Rotherham to be caused by a tiny problem minority of the local muslim population

Minority of the local Pakistani population

blindswelledrat said:

thus it is not worth putting any thought into it as they are now arrested and dealt with?

It needs thought and discussion. I put some thoughts forward previously of the background of these perpretators, and what needs to be dealt with.

These men:-
- come from tight knit communities where a lot of these people have ancestory from the same villages back in Pakistan
- usually not very well educated backgrounds (ancestors were labourers, landowners, or come from manual labour orientated work in Pakistan)
- very backward mentality when it comes to women, and double standards for women outside of their immediate families
- use Islam as an excuse when it suits them to play the discrimination/race card
- would probably be involved in cash businesses, and possible tax evasion
- married to a cousin from Pakistan

[Twincharge]

blindswelledrat said:

To ask a different question:
Do you consider the large scale raping that took place in Rotherham to be caused by a tiny problem minority of the local muslim population thus it is not worth putting any thought into it as they are now arrested and dealt with?

No, if you look back you will see that I already said much needs to be done by the community to ensure this does not happen again in Rotherham.

[magnum555]

blindswelledrat said:

Twincharge said:

It was a genuine question, here's another from the same collection;

"What is the attitude of Black men towards women?"

Not a fair analogy because there would be nothing to promote the question.
A more relevant "from the same collection" would be "Generally do black males commit proportionally more violent crime because I keep reading many articles suggesting so"? which I see as a completely valid question.

Similarly people keep reading of mass abuse of women by Pakistani males and it is perfectly valid to question it. And if you answered from a perspective of knowledge instead of trying to quash the question then either a)people would conclude in the presence of fact that it was a problem minority and irrelevant worrying about it or b)something does indeed need to be educated into certain sections because it is a large scale problem.

To ask a different question:
Do you consider the large scale raping that took place in Rotherham to be caused by a tiny problem minority of the local muslim population thus it is not worth putting any thought into it as they are now arrested and dealt with?

Why are you bringing religion into this? It has nothing to do with religion, this is totally unacceptable in every religion.

[s1962a]

heppers75 said:

s1962a said:

Twincharge said:

heppers75 said:

So you do acknowledge that there is a problem in your community as well as others then and it needs to be addressed?

Not all Pakistani men live in segregated communities, I'm quite sure of that.

For me, if by 'community' you are referring to me, my friends, family, and aquaintances, then no, it isn't a problem from what I know. Who knows what people do in secret though.

Heppers:- thought you weren't generalising?

I am trying not to!

I am working on the facts as I have researched them simple as.

Those facts tell me from CEOP that at the very least 26% of these crimes is committed by 7% of the population by demographic. sorry I don't care what way you want to try and obfuscate that it needs addressing.

Eh? Of course it needs addressing, It's a serious problem. I thought you had agreed previously that it's an issue for the local Pakistani communities of the towns concerned, not of the Pakistani population as a whole. Or is that not the case?

[heppers75]

magnum555 said:

I am defending the labeling of a single community for crimes committed by a small minority of people. I would expect anyone who is not prejudice to hold such a view for any community. You cannot go round labeling and pointing the fingers at any community it will create more problems.

The job of tackling any crime must be the responsibility of the authorities. Saying communities need to self police is totally unreasonable and unacceptable.

It may well be a small minority of the total number of people but it is a disproportionally higher percentage if that community than others, do you agree with that?

[blindswelledrat]

Twincharge said:

No, if you look back you will see that I already said much needs to be done by the community to ensure this does not happen again in Rotherham.

Fair enough. But realistically whatever 'needs to be done' isn't really worth doing with the white British youth of Rotherham, or the Indian youth of Rotherham, or the Eastern European youth of Rotherham that I know of surely?
If you are genuinely wanting to find a way forward you have to pigeonhole the potential offenders or you spend an infinite amount of resources doing it with an entire population for fear of offending people. YOu must agree with that surely?

[Twincharge]

heppers75 said:

It may well be a small minority of the total number of people but it is a disproportionally higher percentage if that community than others, do you agree with that?

I disagree with that statement, it happens in all similar segregated communities. However, we are talking about Rotherham right now, which is a Pakistani community in question.

[Bill]

irocfan said:

words fail me on the subject of Joyce Thacker - obviously a magnum fan...'parents should share the blame'. Definitely the sort of person for whom the phrase -punt was invented

I think this is being lost in the community debate, no matter who in the wider Pakistani community knew or suspected anything there are a number of people who were in a position to do something about this over ten years ago and many times since and didn't.

IMO much of the anger in this thread is being directed in entirely the wrong direction.

[heppers75]

s1962a said:

Eh? Of course it needs addressing, It's a serious problem. I thought you had agreed previously that it's an issue for the local Pakistani communities of the towns concerned, not of the Pakistani population as a whole. Or is that not the case?

I actually think it is a serious enough issue that it needs to be dealt with on as many fronts as possible that fall within the law of the land.

I can be certain of one thing though, it can't be addressed until it is properly acknowledged!

[blindswelledrat]

magnum555 said:

Why are you bringing religion into this? It has nothing to do with religion, this is totally unacceptable in every religion.

Fair point although the fact that a moderate deems it unacceptable does not automatically preclude religion from being a factor.
In this case I agree nothing suggests it is hence clumsily worded

[heppers75]

Twincharge said:

heppers75 said:

It may well be a small minority of the total number of people but it is a disproportionally higher percentage if that community than others, do you agree with that?

I disagree with that statement, it happens in all similar segregated communities. However, we are talking about Rotherham right now, which is a Pakistani community in question.

So you disagree with the CEOP report then? Might I ask why?

[Rude-boy]

Twincharge said:

Countdown said:

Not wishing to answer on behalf of TwinCharge but in my opinion....

It depends partly on the generation and partly on the social/educational background. The older generation definitely see the man as being "in charge of the household", "wearing the trousers" etc. I don't think this is massively different to any other UK community from a few decades ago. Perhaps the difference is that the indigenous community has had its views changed as a result of the various equal opportunities initiatives and laws whereas the immigrant community lags a couple of generations behind. The younger generation (especially the educated / professional types) see women as equals and marriage as more of a partnership.

TL;DR - In my opinion older Pakistani men tend to be more chauvinistic than younger ones and those with a lower educational attainment tend to be more chauvinistic than those from a professional background.

I fully endorse this post.

As a white male I would say that this fits in with my impression, and whilst the cultural revolution might be a bit slower in some subsets (it would be anyway for some that started many years behind, say, the WASP from Reading!), the TL;DR could easily remove the word 'Pakistani' - the main difference I perceive is that one set of old men are 70+ and the other late 40's+, and logically the function of proportionality takes its effect.

[s1962a]

heppers75 said:

s1962a said:

Eh? Of course it needs addressing, It's a serious problem. I thought you had agreed previously that it's an issue for the local Pakistani communities of the towns concerned, not of the Pakistani population as a whole. Or is that not the case?

I actually think it is a serious enough issue that it needs to be dealt with on as many fronts as possible that fall within the law of the land.

I can be certain of one thing though, it can't be addressed until it is properly acknowledged!

I agree. In my circles and anyone that has ever spoken to me about this (Pakistani or not) it is condemned and I personally feel sickened by it.

To move forward with this though, we need to engage the actual communities involved and spread awareness of this. Also the police and social services really need to get their finger out. Why the hell did they not do anything when they clearly knew what was going on? PC my arse - it is irrelevant, unless they did it for their own political reasons.

[Bill]

heppers75 said:

So you disagree with the CEOP report then? Might I ask why?

This would be the CEOP report that says there isn't enough data to draw any conclusions about ethnicity?

[Twincharge]

heppers75 said:

So you disagree with the CEOP report then? Might I ask why?

Yes, because Pakistani's are not the only Asian's in this country. Feel free to label Pakistani men though at your own leisure.

[Twincharge]

blindswelledrat said:

Fair enough. But realistically whatever 'needs to be done' isn't really worth doing with the white British youth of Rotherham, or the Indian youth of Rotherham, or the Eastern European youth of Rotherham that I know of surely?
If you are genuinely wanting to find a way forward you have to pigeonhole the potential offenders or you spend an infinite amount of resources doing it with an entire population for fear of offending people. YOu must agree with that surely?

Yes, I do agree with that.

[heppers75]

s1962a said:

heppers75 said:

s1962a said:

Eh? Of course it needs addressing, It's a serious problem. I thought you had agreed previously that it's an issue for the local Pakistani communities of the towns concerned, not of the Pakistani population as a whole. Or is that not the case?

I actually think it is a serious enough issue that it needs to be dealt with on as many fronts as possible that fall within the law of the land.

I can be certain of one thing though, it can't be addressed until it is properly acknowledged!

I agree. In my circles and anyone that has ever spoken to me about this (Pakistani or not) it is condemned and I personally feel sickened by it.

To move forward with this though, we need to engage the actual communities involved and spread awareness of this. Also the police and social services really need to get their finger out. Why the hell did they not do anything when they clearly knew what was going on? PC my arse - it is irrelevant, unless they did it for their own political reasons.

The problem faced is that there seems still to be far too any people and some on here even that refuse to even acknowledge the issue and I strongly suspect when the authorities have tried or did try to target them would scream the ism and persecution cards, as indeed has been done just in this single debate.

That makes it a very very difficult problem to tackle, if only there was as much acceptance and enlightenment on the issue at hand as you and you immediate community seem to have.

[heppers75]

Twincharge said:

heppers75 said:

So you disagree with the CEOP report then? Might I ask why?

Yes, because Pakistani's are not the only Asian's in this country. Feel free to label Pakistani men though at your own leisure.

Can I say other than right now I have not mentioned Pakistani men once!

[anonymous-user]

magnum555 said:

When are we meeting in Rotherham to discuss this?

I admire your tenacity, genuinely.

I'm not coming to Rotherham. Ever, if I can help it. If your "discussion" on here is any example, then there's no hope. You can see no wrong, unless it's the fault of the victims.

It's frustrating, depressing, and does multiculturalism and integration no favours.