Why is the "death of the town center" a problem?
Discussion
I pondered this a few days ago. And a poster on another thread said:
Why can't we accept people now shop online and in the big out of center retail places that they prefer?
somebody said:
They like to blame "big out of town stores" for the decline but that's IMO rubbish. People leave town centres due to inadequate parking and excessive parking charges. Shops leave because the business rates are ridiculously high and people won't come if they can't park or are overcharged for parking.
So people keep banging in on about shops not being in town centers. But there are no shops there because there are not enough people going there to buy stuff. If there are no people there, why MUST we have shops there?Why can't we accept people now shop online and in the big out of center retail places that they prefer?
Because small local shops tend to be run by small local shop keepers who in turn spend money locally and employ local people. They also pay local tax (business rates) and also corporation tax in the UK.
Compare this to a large out of town "shed" type shop, there will still be business rates and local jobs but the profits will go overseas if owned by an overseas company. They might also pay little or no UK tax.
Compare again to a large online retailer, there will be potentially no UK business rates and certainly nothing local which will help your local council to fund local projects. The profits will also potentially go overseas, as will the corporation tax.
The result is that peoples money goes away from the local area, which means there are fewer jobs for local people and less money for the local council to spend. In grand terms it would be like us getting into debt to buy stuff sold to us by a foreign company, the money is flowing away from us and towards them. They then have buying power to buy stuff they want, probably not from us. (e.g. if we get into debt buying stuff from american companies who are ultimately buying from china there's not a lot of benefit to the UK. Well local shops are the macro scale version of this.)
I'm not an economist, so the above is largely guesswork!
PS - Apologies if the overseas profits/tax thing confuses the issues. I know there's plenty of UK owned businesses who operate out of town, but the point is that they'll be big chains and the profits go to their shareholders and not so much to the local area.
Compare this to a large out of town "shed" type shop, there will still be business rates and local jobs but the profits will go overseas if owned by an overseas company. They might also pay little or no UK tax.
Compare again to a large online retailer, there will be potentially no UK business rates and certainly nothing local which will help your local council to fund local projects. The profits will also potentially go overseas, as will the corporation tax.
The result is that peoples money goes away from the local area, which means there are fewer jobs for local people and less money for the local council to spend. In grand terms it would be like us getting into debt to buy stuff sold to us by a foreign company, the money is flowing away from us and towards them. They then have buying power to buy stuff they want, probably not from us. (e.g. if we get into debt buying stuff from american companies who are ultimately buying from china there's not a lot of benefit to the UK. Well local shops are the macro scale version of this.)
I'm not an economist, so the above is largely guesswork!
PS - Apologies if the overseas profits/tax thing confuses the issues. I know there's plenty of UK owned businesses who operate out of town, but the point is that they'll be big chains and the profits go to their shareholders and not so much to the local area.
Munter said:
So people keep banging in on about shops not being in town centers. But there are no shops there because there are not enough people going there to buy stuff. If there are no people there, why MUST we have shops there?
Why can't we accept people now shop online and in the big out of center retail places that they prefer?
Someone in another thread reckoned we had to keep it because going to the shops was the only form of human contact for some people! Why can't we accept people now shop online and in the big out of center retail places that they prefer?
If you're mobile enough to get to the shops, yet can't find any other way of getting human contact, there's something way more wrong with your life than just whether the shops are open or not.
We probably do around 70% of our shopping online at the moment - Ocado getting most of it - and can't understand why people would want to shop on the High Street if they can possibly avoid it for most things. Yes, I do like being able to see the meat I'm going to buy in the butcher, and hope he keeps going for many years, although if for any reason he didn't, I know I can now go direct to the farmer online in many cases. I also like to try on clothes before paying for them, but beyond that I'd much rather in most cases that people just deliver to me.
mrmr96 said:
Because small local shops tend to be run by small local shop keepers who in turn spend money locally and employ local people. They also pay local tax (business rates) and also corporation tax in the UK.
Fine in principle but when did you last see a small locally owned shop in a town centreMost town centres are identical to out of town retail parks just with worse parking
Quite agree. Worse still their answer seems to be to to encourage building big supermarkets in the town centre to "keep it alive." If they'd just accept the reality that people do like to do most of their shopping in big, convenient places with lots of parking it would free up more space in town centres for bars, restaurants and specialist shops that would actually make these places more interesting.
Instead we have town centres full of McDonalds, Weatherspoons and Pound Shops, with the odd job Centre thrown in, and the independents squeezed out by high rents that the big chains are prepared to pay as an easier alternative to building a more convenient, out of town place.
Instead we have town centres full of McDonalds, Weatherspoons and Pound Shops, with the odd job Centre thrown in, and the independents squeezed out by high rents that the big chains are prepared to pay as an easier alternative to building a more convenient, out of town place.
thinfourth2 said:
mrmr96 said:
Because small local shops tend to be run by small local shop keepers who in turn spend money locally and employ local people. They also pay local tax (business rates) and also corporation tax in the UK.
Fine in principle but when did you last see a small locally owned shop in a town centreMost town centres are identical to out of town retail parks just with worse parking
And you're right, if the shops in town are just clones from the next town over then in actual fact their loss wouldn't be too bad in fact, because once you reach that stage the proper local shops are lost already.
thinfourth2 said:
mrmr96 said:
Because small local shops tend to be run by small local shop keepers who in turn spend money locally and employ local people. They also pay local tax (business rates) and also corporation tax in the UK.
Fine in principle but when did you last see a small locally owned shop in a town centreMost town centres are identical to out of town retail parks just with worse parking
High Street shopping is a consumer choice based upon cost,convenience,loyalty and most likely a few other factors aside. Its obvious the traditional High Street shop has had its day falling prey to consumer choice. People increasingly shop on-line or in a 'out of town' warehouse, and some of them are dying due to internet shopping. Attempts to halt the trend are well intentioned but bound to fail, progress is an unstoppable wave.
If I were a High Street retailer I would certainly investigate shifting base, perhaps with some of my retail colleagues to form a small consortium, into a 'out of town' or share a larger in town establishment. The bigger traders have already done this with success it seems.
As for the physical High Street, convert from retail into domestic homes.
If I were a High Street retailer I would certainly investigate shifting base, perhaps with some of my retail colleagues to form a small consortium, into a 'out of town' or share a larger in town establishment. The bigger traders have already done this with success it seems.
As for the physical High Street, convert from retail into domestic homes.
I have no problem with out of town shopping of local. Whatever I find easiest, and best for me will win. If the out of town is too far, or more expensive, (all other things being equal), then local will win, and vice versa. The problem local shopping has is that they tend to keep regular 'office' hours, so folks with regular office hours will more often than not be unable to go there, hence the convenience of the local Spar/Tesco/Sainsbury, etc.
My first thought before setting off when considering shopping in a town centre is "where shall I park?".
If going to an out of town place, no-one thinks "where shall I park?".
Add to that the council want to charge for parking AS WELL, it's no surprise more and more people are going to out of town places.
Put large capacity FREE parking at either end of town high streets and people will return (not all, granted, but many).
If going to an out of town place, no-one thinks "where shall I park?".
Add to that the council want to charge for parking AS WELL, it's no surprise more and more people are going to out of town places.
Put large capacity FREE parking at either end of town high streets and people will return (not all, granted, but many).
pilchardthecat said:
Shops are just places you go to to look at something (if you really must) before you buy it on the internet.
It's interesting from a "game theory" perspective too. Because I'm sure you see that if everyone does what you're suggesting then there will be no shops and it will cease to be possible to do. So you need some people to keep supporting the shops so that you can view there and then buy online. However it could be argued that if everyone were acting in their personal best interests only, then they'd all go for the lower cost option of buying online but then the 'system' for viewing in shops falls down.Dracoro said:
My first thought before setting off when considering shopping in a town centre is "where shall I park?".
If going to an out of town place, no-one thinks "where shall I park?".
Add to that the council want to charge for parking AS WELL, it's no surprise more and more people are going to out of town places.
Put large capacity FREE parking at either end of town high streets and people will return (not all, granted, but many).
Exactly, why should you be penalised for bringing custom to the town? It is why we never bother to shop in town anymore and either do it online or at locations with free parking. If going to an out of town place, no-one thinks "where shall I park?".
Add to that the council want to charge for parking AS WELL, it's no surprise more and more people are going to out of town places.
Put large capacity FREE parking at either end of town high streets and people will return (not all, granted, but many).
mrmr96 said:
It's interesting from a "game theory" perspective too. Because I'm sure you see that if everyone does what you're suggesting then there will be no shops and it will cease to be possible to do. So you need some people to keep supporting the shops so that you can view there and then buy online. However it could be argued that if everyone were acting in their personal best interests only, then they'd all go for the lower cost option of buying online but then the 'system' for viewing in shops falls down.
Retailers are aware that this happens. So I think they would put some or all of the cost of running the store down as advertisement to drive the online buyers to their site. And/or price match online, and in store, so you may as well buy it while you have your hands on it, unless there is a queue at the checkout, in which case a QR code on the shelf/item should allow you to "1 click" order.For me its to do with paying for parking, one way streets and the inconvenience of having to put in the meter the amount for how long you need to stay before you know how long it will take and running the risk of a ticket.
Also, from a perspective of a woman at retirement age, town centres tend to have people hanging outside the pub, bus station and to have groups of people/children wearing hoodies which can be intimidating. Out of town places tend only to have car drivers there so i find them less threatening places to be.
Also, from a perspective of a woman at retirement age, town centres tend to have people hanging outside the pub, bus station and to have groups of people/children wearing hoodies which can be intimidating. Out of town places tend only to have car drivers there so i find them less threatening places to be.
Munter said:
Why can't we accept people now shop online and in the big out of center retail places that they prefer?
I don't prefer it, I don't have a choice if you're talking about bricks and mortar shops.I live in a small city. If I want a cup of coffee, an eyetest, or to buy a house I can walk into town and take my pick from around a dozen of each and it is not a large town.
If I want to buy a pair of trousers I have Burtons and that's it. If I want to buy a pair of shoes I have one shoe shop and that is it.
So if you were me and you needed a pair of trousers or shoes, when you finished work would you drive into town, pay a quid to park even if it's only for 10 minutes, and go look around Burtons, or would you stop at the out of town retail park that's 10 seconds off the main road, and has Next, M&S, Blacks and god knows what else?
That's bricks and mortar, that's before you even begin to get in the fact that the boots that are £140 in the local shoe shop can be had for £80 online - in fact Parcelforce should be delivering them today.
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hstewie said:
hstewie said: I don't prefer it, I don't have a choice if you're talking about bricks and mortar shops.
I live in a small city. If I want a cup of coffee, an eyetest, or to buy a house I can walk into town and take my pick from around a dozen of each and it is not a large town.
If I want to buy a pair of trousers I have Burtons and that's it. If I want to buy a pair of shoes I have one shoe shop and that is it.
So if you were me and you needed a pair of trousers or shoes, when you finished work would you drive into town, pay a quid to park even if it's only for 10 minutes, and go look around Burtons, or would you stop at the out of town retail park that's 10 seconds off the main road, and has Next, M&S, Blacks and god knows what else?
That's bricks and mortar, that's before you even begin to get in the fact that the boots that are £140 in the local shoe shop can be had for £80 online - in fact Parcelforce should be delivering them today.
I'm missing something here. You say you don't prefer "out of town" and then go on to explain how you prefer out of town due to it's greater selection of shops, easy access and free parking, and order online as a preference because it's cheaper.I live in a small city. If I want a cup of coffee, an eyetest, or to buy a house I can walk into town and take my pick from around a dozen of each and it is not a large town.
If I want to buy a pair of trousers I have Burtons and that's it. If I want to buy a pair of shoes I have one shoe shop and that is it.
So if you were me and you needed a pair of trousers or shoes, when you finished work would you drive into town, pay a quid to park even if it's only for 10 minutes, and go look around Burtons, or would you stop at the out of town retail park that's 10 seconds off the main road, and has Next, M&S, Blacks and god knows what else?
That's bricks and mortar, that's before you even begin to get in the fact that the boots that are £140 in the local shoe shop can be had for £80 online - in fact Parcelforce should be delivering them today.
Munter said:
I'm missing something here. You say you don't prefer "out of town" and then go on to explain how you prefer out of town due to it's greater selection of shops, easy access and free parking, and order online as a preference because it's cheaper.
When I say "prefer" I meant if I could actually get what I wanted in town and I didn't have to pay a quid just to park.Dracoro said:
My first thought before setting off when considering shopping in a town centre is "where shall I park?".
If going to an out of town place, no-one thinks "where shall I park?".
Add to that the council want to charge for parking AS WELL, it's no surprise more and more people are going to out of town places.
Put large capacity FREE parking at either end of town high streets and people will return (not all, granted, but many).
Completely agree, although when I go to shop in Ipswich I use the 'Park and Ride' scheme which is good and cheap. Its fare is cheaper than the in town car parks.If going to an out of town place, no-one thinks "where shall I park?".
Add to that the council want to charge for parking AS WELL, it's no surprise more and more people are going to out of town places.
Put large capacity FREE parking at either end of town high streets and people will return (not all, granted, but many).
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