Why is the "death of the town center" a problem?
Discussion
crankedup said:
Completely agree, although when I go to shop in Ipswich I use the 'Park and Ride' scheme which is good and cheap. Its fare is cheaper than the in town car parks.
I went to Nottingham over Christmas and the "park" part of the "Park and Ride" was totally free. So 4 hours parking a 10 minute walk from the town centre totally FOC without having to crawl the residential streets. The French seem able to manage their town centres much better than we do. Sure, they have out of town retail sites for the daily needs, but there are many more smaller shops in the town centres selling niche and high end goods that appear to be doing well. Street cafe bars, well kept public spaces and thriving street markets are places where people can meet and relax and take pleasure in enjoying a shopping and socialising experience.
Rather than trying to relax and enjoy a similar retail experience, we Brits seem preoccupied with bargain pricing and chain store merchandise. As a consequence, our town centres have become by necessity what our spending patterns have dictated.
Rather than trying to relax and enjoy a similar retail experience, we Brits seem preoccupied with bargain pricing and chain store merchandise. As a consequence, our town centres have become by necessity what our spending patterns have dictated.
Edited by sparkythecat on Thursday 3rd January 12:34
I think the other issue is the choice represented by smaller (artisan?) shops.
For example, I use my local butcher (where, fortunately there is free parking) simply because the choice and quality of produce are significantly better than that of supermarkets.
The combination of business rates and parking fees is effectively IMHO reducing the choice of goods on offer to people as well as becoming an almost self-fulfilling process of increasing the hold that large business has on the economy.
I'm not of the view that mindless shopping is a 'good thing' or even affordable on the levels recently seen, but on some level, I think there is a danger we miss some important aspects for both the UK and our quality of life if we allow smaller shops and high streets to wither and die.
For example, I use my local butcher (where, fortunately there is free parking) simply because the choice and quality of produce are significantly better than that of supermarkets.
The combination of business rates and parking fees is effectively IMHO reducing the choice of goods on offer to people as well as becoming an almost self-fulfilling process of increasing the hold that large business has on the economy.
I'm not of the view that mindless shopping is a 'good thing' or even affordable on the levels recently seen, but on some level, I think there is a danger we miss some important aspects for both the UK and our quality of life if we allow smaller shops and high streets to wither and die.
We need more housing and we don't need as many shops.
I say the landscape of towns as we know it will be entirelly different in 20 years time.
A few of the bigger cities might still have their big retail centres but in the smaller poorer ones they will practically non existent, less so in wealthy areas perhaps.
The traditional model of the town centre is quickly dying and that's no bad thing. I love cars but they are not needed in cities or towns to the degree that they are now, or at least shouldn't be.
Thsi would be a lot safer for kids/pedestrians too and allow for more social interaction with parks/libraries/museums and places for people to meet, eat etc.
We can get everything we need online and its a very positive retail model for all concerned.
I say the landscape of towns as we know it will be entirelly different in 20 years time.
A few of the bigger cities might still have their big retail centres but in the smaller poorer ones they will practically non existent, less so in wealthy areas perhaps.
The traditional model of the town centre is quickly dying and that's no bad thing. I love cars but they are not needed in cities or towns to the degree that they are now, or at least shouldn't be.
Thsi would be a lot safer for kids/pedestrians too and allow for more social interaction with parks/libraries/museums and places for people to meet, eat etc.
We can get everything we need online and its a very positive retail model for all concerned.
crankedup said:
Completely agree, although when I go to shop in Ipswich I use the 'Park and Ride' scheme which is good and cheap. Its fare is cheaper than the in town car parks.
I went into Ipswich on the weekend, parked in the Buttermarket car park because I'm a lazy so and so and it's right in the town centre, total cost £1.80. Still hate shopping though, if I could do it all online I would.mrmr96 said:
Because small local shops tend to be run by small local shop keepers who in turn spend money locally and employ local people. They also pay local tax (business rates) and also corporation tax in the UK.
Compare this to a large out of town "shed" type shop, there will still be business rates and local jobs but the profits will go overseas if owned by an overseas company. They might also pay little or no UK tax.
Compare again to a large online retailer, there will be potentially no UK business rates and certainly nothing local which will help your local council to fund local projects. The profits will also potentially go overseas, as will the corporation tax.
The result is that peoples money goes away from the local area, which means there are fewer jobs for local people and less money for the local council to spend. In grand terms it would be like us getting into debt to buy stuff sold to us by a foreign company, the money is flowing away from us and towards them. They then have buying power to buy stuff they want, probably not from us. (e.g. if we get into debt buying stuff from american companies who are ultimately buying from china there's not a lot of benefit to the UK. Well local shops are the macro scale version of this.)
I'm not an economist, so the above is largely guesswork!
PS - Apologies if the overseas profits/tax thing confuses the issues. I know there's plenty of UK owned businesses who operate out of town, but the point is that they'll be big chains and the profits go to their shareholders and not so much to the local area.
You mention several times about companies paying little or no corporation tax. Simple solution, reduce corporation tax to around 10% as a number of other countries have done already. Compare this to a large out of town "shed" type shop, there will still be business rates and local jobs but the profits will go overseas if owned by an overseas company. They might also pay little or no UK tax.
Compare again to a large online retailer, there will be potentially no UK business rates and certainly nothing local which will help your local council to fund local projects. The profits will also potentially go overseas, as will the corporation tax.
The result is that peoples money goes away from the local area, which means there are fewer jobs for local people and less money for the local council to spend. In grand terms it would be like us getting into debt to buy stuff sold to us by a foreign company, the money is flowing away from us and towards them. They then have buying power to buy stuff they want, probably not from us. (e.g. if we get into debt buying stuff from american companies who are ultimately buying from china there's not a lot of benefit to the UK. Well local shops are the macro scale version of this.)
I'm not an economist, so the above is largely guesswork!
PS - Apologies if the overseas profits/tax thing confuses the issues. I know there's plenty of UK owned businesses who operate out of town, but the point is that they'll be big chains and the profits go to their shareholders and not so much to the local area.
Fortunately we have an indoor market and the local butchers are way better than the supermarkets, the veg is easier to buy etc.
Unfortunately I have to go to the big store to get some stuff, I understand it is market forces and all that but it does not mean I have to like it. I would rather the local business had my money but that avenue is now shut.
Unfortunately I have to go to the big store to get some stuff, I understand it is market forces and all that but it does not mean I have to like it. I would rather the local business had my money but that avenue is now shut.
Me and the wife are looking at opening a shop in my town center.We have started to look at industrial units instead the rents and rates of these town shop would just send a small business bankrupt.Its like every thing else in the uk just out priced themselves. We have had new flats blocks built with shop units at the ground floor and the units have never be opened as shops. Some of them were built 10 years ago. Rows of them are empty.
If i was a owner of these units i would rather have them rented out at a price that would keep the businesses open for years then charging the extortionate rates they do only to have the shop close and have it empty for long periods of time.
If i was a owner of these units i would rather have them rented out at a price that would keep the businesses open for years then charging the extortionate rates they do only to have the shop close and have it empty for long periods of time.
sparkythecat said:
The French seem able to manage their town centres much better than we do. Sure, they have out of town retail sites for the daily needs, but there are many more smaller shops in the town centres selling niche and high end goods that appear to be doing well. Street cafe bars, well kept public spaces and thriving street markets are places where people can meet and relax and take pleasure in enjoying a shopping and socialising experience.
Rather than trying to relax and enjoy a similar retail experience, we Brits seem preoccupied with bargain pricing and chain store merchandise. As a consequence, our town centres have become by necessity what our spending patterns have dictated.
Precisely - and it's not just the French, you find the same in just about any given European country.Rather than trying to relax and enjoy a similar retail experience, we Brits seem preoccupied with bargain pricing and chain store merchandise. As a consequence, our town centres have become by necessity what our spending patterns have dictated.
Edited by sparkythecat on Thursday 3rd January 12:34
I'm finding something increasingly antisocial about the British and I do wonder whether it's internet shopping that's doing it (per capita we do more of it than anyone, even the Americans). On here I read no end of narcissistic gittishness about avoiding having to mix with 'the plebs' or talk to anyone or have to have a face-to-face conversation about anything.
I live in an internet dead-zone and I love it. I hate the experience of internet shopping (I don't trust putting by bank details on a website for starters), I don't buy anything on the internet unless there really is no choice, and I do as much as I can face-to-face in the high street as possible.
And I don't care if it costs me a tiny bit more. Why? Because I'd rather keep people in work and live somewhere that's bustling and thriving than spend the same amount of extra money on unemployment benefits while my town turns into an empty, intimidating place full of boarded-up shops and rudderless unemployed people with nothing to do while those people who do manage to cling to work hole themselves and their families up in their houses communicating only via screens. The whole thing is starting to resemble a dystopian nightmare.
Also, retail is the main sector for mass working-class employment these days. Having turned our manufacturing sector into a slimmed-down, automated, specialised thing, we moved the bulk of that unskilled/semi-skilled population into retail. Now it seems the isolationist, computer-worshipping middle-class are busy making the physical retail sector redundant, while also reading and not paying for their newspaper online as well so the local kids can't even get paper rounds.
WHAT ARE PEOPLE GOING TO DO?
Because don't come crying to me if we end up with repeat performances of last summer's riots again and again and again, spreading further every year as more and more people chase fewer and fewer jobs and entire families (and in some cases communities) end up unable to find work.
We can't all be goateed company directors or 'ontrapranuurs'((c) every shiny-suited delusionist on Dragon's Den), nor can we access the cash or the nous to 'just start your own business' as is so often blithely spouted on here. A huge proportion of the population needs to work for someone, and we are talking millions. You can't just write them off or tell them to do something else totally theoretical. You have to create opportunities on a mass scale.
Personally I'd be in favour of some kind of internet transaction tax to pay for the damage that the wrecking-ball of the internet is wreaking on the economy. There are some US states that do this already.
Something has to be done, because otherwise we'll end up relentlessly pursuing a business model in which profits are continually maximised for a dwindling few at the expense of more and more essentially redundant masses in the name of 'efficiency'. Otherwise you're looking at revolution.
No doubt some of the chalkstripes on here, in the darker recesses of their minds, would advocate swatting the working class into the gutter. After all, it's their fault for not 'adapting'.
I completely disagree. What's the point of an economy - or a world for that matter - that seems more bothered about the wellbeing and livelihood of machines than it is of people? What is the world for exactly - the home of the human race, or a giant footstool for the upper middle class?
hollydog said:
Me and the wife are looking at opening a shop in my town center.We have started to look at industrial units instead the rents and rates of these town shop would just send a small business bankrupt.Its like every thing else in the uk just out priced themselves. We have had new flats blocks built with shop units at the ground floor and the units have never be opened as shops. Some of them were built 10 years ago. Rows of them are empty.
If i was a owner of these units i would rather have them rented out at a price that would keep the businesses open for years then charging the extortionate rates they do only to have the shop close and have it empty for long periods of time.
It is very common for the big supermarkets to hoover up all the leases on retail premises within the key catchment area of their stores, then charge untenable leases and fees to prevent competing business from setting up. South Woodham Ferrers in Essex is a prime example of this where ASDA dominate the town and have prevented any shop opening that in anyway could affect ASDA's income in the town. If i was a owner of these units i would rather have them rented out at a price that would keep the businesses open for years then charging the extortionate rates they do only to have the shop close and have it empty for long periods of time.
hollydog said:
If i was a owner of these units i would rather have them rented out at a price that would keep the businesses open for years then charging the extortionate rates they do only to have the shop close and have it empty for long periods of time.
Do you mean rent or rates? The high rates are set by the government and end up in general coffers. Neither the local council nor the landlord has any control over these which is why out of town is currently cheaper.The landlord doesn't want the building empty but their difficulty is finding a tenant able to pay both the rates and some sort of rent which covers the cost of renting it out. Not an easy problem to solve.
People just don't shop that way anymore, the traditional high street of Butcher, Baker and Candlestick maker is all but gone, and has been for years now. OK some good ones do still exist and there's no reason why they won't continue to do so, the market has just shrunk to meet demand.
But to me the 'High Street' these days is 2-3 Bookmakers (large Plc) 2-3 chain pubs (large Plc) Greggs (large Plc) Poundland (large Ltd) Travel Agent who does a nice line in all inclusive to the Costas (large Plc) and lots of boarded up units.
It’s another one of the romanticised concepts people moan about losing 5-10 years after its gone whilst they browse Amazon.
Who knows, if car ownership falls or at least becomes more and more expensive it might make a come-back as people take to public transport, walking or cycling, but can you imagine in 2013 trying to do a weekly shop for a family of 4 in a high street, so we all use supermarkets and they pretty much sell everything we could ever want, at pretty much online prices, available right now, 90 seconds from the Car and they even give you a trolley to move it all.
But to me the 'High Street' these days is 2-3 Bookmakers (large Plc) 2-3 chain pubs (large Plc) Greggs (large Plc) Poundland (large Ltd) Travel Agent who does a nice line in all inclusive to the Costas (large Plc) and lots of boarded up units.
It’s another one of the romanticised concepts people moan about losing 5-10 years after its gone whilst they browse Amazon.
Who knows, if car ownership falls or at least becomes more and more expensive it might make a come-back as people take to public transport, walking or cycling, but can you imagine in 2013 trying to do a weekly shop for a family of 4 in a high street, so we all use supermarkets and they pretty much sell everything we could ever want, at pretty much online prices, available right now, 90 seconds from the Car and they even give you a trolley to move it all.
crankedup said:
High Street shopping is a consumer choice based upon cost,convenience,loyalty and most likely a few other factors aside. Its obvious the traditional High Street shop has had its day falling prey to consumer choice. People increasingly shop on-line or in a 'out of town' warehouse, and some of them are dying due to internet shopping. Attempts to halt the trend are well intentioned but bound to fail, progress is an unstoppable wave.
If I were a High Street retailer I would certainly investigate shifting base, perhaps with some of my retail colleagues to form a small consortium, into a 'out of town' or share a larger in town establishment. The bigger traders have already done this with success it seems.
As for the physical High Street, convert from retail into domestic homes.
I think it depends. If I were a High Street retailer I would certainly investigate shifting base, perhaps with some of my retail colleagues to form a small consortium, into a 'out of town' or share a larger in town establishment. The bigger traders have already done this with success it seems.
As for the physical High Street, convert from retail into domestic homes.
The way I see it there are two types of shopper. There are the "I know what I want to buy and I have come here to buy it" types. More often men, but obviously not exclusively. These are the types who will do most of their shopping online or go to a retail park.
Then there is the type who like to "go out shopping" and make impulse purchases. Often, but again not always, women. For them, "going shopping" is an enjoyable way of spending an afternoon and you just don't get that online or at a retail park. Unless that out of town retail park is like a Mall or Shopping Centre.
Personally, as the latter type of shopper, I'd be sad if we no longer had High Street shopping as I like wandering round the shops of a Saturday afternoon.
P-Jay said:
But to me the 'High Street' these days is 2-3 Bookmakers (large Plc) 2-3 chain pubs (large Plc) Greggs (large Plc) Poundland (large Ltd) Travel Agent who does a nice line in all inclusive to the Costas (large Plc) and lots of boarded up units.
P-Jay said:
can you imagine in 2013 trying to do a weekly shop for a family of 4 in a high street, so we all use supermarkets and they pretty much sell everything we could ever want, at pretty much online prices, available right now, 90 seconds from the Car and they even give you a trolley to move it all.
For food, yes, supermarkets make most sense, although IMO they have a duty to employ local farmers and promote local produce.But for anything else, I don't bother with a supermarket. If I want a book I'll go to a bookshop, for clothes I want a clothes shop and so on. I don't shop online and I want the broadest possible choice - food aside, supermarkets can only really offer selected pickings of other things.
Twincam16 said:
...
Something has to be done, because otherwise we'll end up relentlessly pursuing a business model in which profits are continually maximised for a dwindling few at the expense of more and more essentially redundant masses in the name of 'efficiency'. Otherwise you're looking at revolution.
Been like this for ever and a day...Something has to be done, because otherwise we'll end up relentlessly pursuing a business model in which profits are continually maximised for a dwindling few at the expense of more and more essentially redundant masses in the name of 'efficiency'. Otherwise you're looking at revolution.
jmorgan said:
Fortunately we have an indoor market and the local butchers are way better than the supermarkets, the veg is easier to buy etc.
Unfortunately I have to go to the big store to get some stuff, I understand it is market forces and all that but it does not mean I have to like it. I would rather the local business had my money but that avenue is now shut.
I like this post^^.Unfortunately I have to go to the big store to get some stuff, I understand it is market forces and all that but it does not mean I have to like it. I would rather the local business had my money but that avenue is now shut.
sparkythecat said:
P-Jay said:
But to me the 'High Street' these days is 2-3 Bookmakers (large Plc) 2-3 chain pubs (large Plc) Greggs (large Plc) Poundland (large Ltd) Travel Agent who does a nice line in all inclusive to the Costas (large Plc) and lots of boarded up units.
Of course I live in Cardiff reasonably close to our staggeringly large indoor shopping arcades, I don't go in much (about once a year) but even that sort of 'shopping for fun' concept is changing fast, I'd guess, food places aside, they're 50% manufacturer owned concept store / showrooms where people go to proud, touch, feel, try on, play with and finally order online.
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