Why is the "death of the town center" a problem?
Discussion
Munter said:
Why can't we accept people now shop online and in the big out of center retail places that they prefer?
Because there still is a demand for independently owned shops. It's just that convenience of going to an out of town shopping park has got too great, or more accurately, the total lack of parking in town centres puts people off.Park & Ride is a waste of time, because a lot of shoppers are women with children, and the last thing they want to do is buy ten bags of shopping, corral three kids and a push buggy, and then face the hassle of getting on and off a bus. Let alone standing outside waiting for the bus in a country where the weather at best is crap.
What a depressing thought that retail is run by a few major corporations and people seem to cheer it on.
JDRoest said:
Munter said:
Why can't we accept people now shop online and in the big out of center retail places that they prefer?
Because there still is a demand for independently owned shops. It's just that convenience of going to an out of town shopping park has got too great, or more accurately, the total lack of parking in town centres puts people off.Park & Ride is a waste of time, because a lot of shoppers are women with children, and the last thing they want to do is buy ten bags of shopping, corral three kids and a push buggy, and then face the hassle of getting on and off a bus. Let alone standing outside waiting for the bus in a country where the weather at best is crap.
What a depressing thought that retail is run by a few major corporations and people seem to cheer it on.
Far more of an issue is the notion of having to walk around town from one shop to the next when you get there, carrying your shopping as you go. I reckon this is why some small towns and villages thrive where larger towns are failing - it's not actually that much further to go from one shop to the next in a small place.
Kermit power said:
JDRoest said:
Munter said:
Why can't we accept people now shop online and in the big out of center retail places that they prefer?
Because there still is a demand for independently owned shops. It's just that convenience of going to an out of town shopping park has got too great, or more accurately, the total lack of parking in town centres puts people off.Park & Ride is a waste of time, because a lot of shoppers are women with children, and the last thing they want to do is buy ten bags of shopping, corral three kids and a push buggy, and then face the hassle of getting on and off a bus. Let alone standing outside waiting for the bus in a country where the weather at best is crap.
What a depressing thought that retail is run by a few major corporations and people seem to cheer it on.
turbobloke said:
Kermit power said:
JDRoest said:
Munter said:
Why can't we accept people now shop online and in the big out of center retail places that they prefer?
Because there still is a demand for independently owned shops. It's just that convenience of going to an out of town shopping park has got too great, or more accurately, the total lack of parking in town centres puts people off.Park & Ride is a waste of time, because a lot of shoppers are women with children, and the last thing they want to do is buy ten bags of shopping, corral three kids and a push buggy, and then face the hassle of getting on and off a bus. Let alone standing outside waiting for the bus in a country where the weather at best is crap.
What a depressing thought that retail is run by a few major corporations and people seem to cheer it on.
MartG said:
Kermit power said:
what does it cost to park to do your shopping? At most, it's 2 or 3 quid. Hardly a deal-breaker?
It is if all you were going for was a £2 sandwich for your lunch - which thanks to parking fees has now become a £4.50 sandwichWhenever I've worked anywhere that wasn't within walking distance of shops, there was generally a mobile sandwich van touring the area, or at worst the need to pop to the local M&S in a BP petrol station.
Again, it's not the thought of paying a couple of quid to park which would put me off. It's the thought of having to drive into a town centre, with the risk of spending a good chunk of your lunch hour stuck in traffic if you're unlucky, then having to actually find a parking space (whether paid or otherwise) and then having to walk from the carpark to the shops which would put me off.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
GavinPearson said:
I don't think you need legislation, you need councils to realise that if they get the balance wrong then their town will no longer have value to shopkeepers.
That leaves a lot of faith in the feckless I am afraid - with more often than not, various different agenda's. It is politics after all !I don't believe it is.
My wife comes from a town that we visit regularly. You leave the motorway and go through another town first. That town was nothing and has been built up in recent times (~20 years). Everywhere you look, there are desirable retailers and just when one development gets completed another gets started.
The irony of it all is that the key retailers that are the major draw to the area tried to go to my wife's town first. The city council came up with every single stupid demand you could ever dream of as if they were doing the company a favour and that it was a privilege to set up shop in my wife's town. Eventually they all got fed up with being messed about and took the easy way out - they put their business where they were welcomed with open arms.
Ironically my wife's town had a department store that was very well established and burnt down. They decided to not rebuild - they could see the writing on the wall with the council's attitude being what it was.
Eventually people are going to figure it out, ramming it down their throat in the form of legislation is never going to work, even if you fix the parking issue it's every single attitude problem that needs fixing and you can't do that with legislation.
Kermit power said:
That's the point I'm making. Lots of people are claiming councils are killing town centres by charging for parking. I think having to walk around the town centre and to/from the carpark is more offputting to people than actually paying for parking.
I'm sure it puts some off - both paying _and_ walking would put me off too 
The French solved this in villages and small towns some time ago - building in parking in front of all the shops.
Kermit power said:
JDRoest said:
Munter said:
Why can't we accept people now shop online and in the big out of center retail places that they prefer?
Because there still is a demand for independently owned shops. It's just that convenience of going to an out of town shopping park has got too great, or more accurately, the total lack of parking in town centres puts people off.Park & Ride is a waste of time, because a lot of shoppers are women with children, and the last thing they want to do is buy ten bags of shopping, corral three kids and a push buggy, and then face the hassle of getting on and off a bus. Let alone standing outside waiting for the bus in a country where the weather at best is crap.
What a depressing thought that retail is run by a few major corporations and people seem to cheer it on.
Far more of an issue is the notion of having to walk around town from one shop to the next when you get there, carrying your shopping as you go. I reckon this is why some small towns and villages thrive where larger towns are failing - it's not actually that much further to go from one shop to the next in a small place.
2-3 quid is a deal breaker though - if I need to pop into town and buy something very quickly - lets say a bit of stationary, it's £5 for the stationary - and £2-3 for the parking. (Even £1.20 in Kingston iirc). The parking will be no where near where I want to be, and half the time I'll have to park in a multistory and walk 10 minutes to the shop.
Or, I can drive the extra 10 minutes to a Tesco where I'll park in the same acre as the shop itself, and save myself £2 in the process.
The other problem is that a lot of meters want exact change, or sell time in 10-20-30 minute increments, so the council sets £1.60, I only have 2 £1 coins on me, and I get to pay 40p for nothing. And if I'm late out of the shops (eg a queue somewhere, or I fancy something else), then there's a £60+ ticket on the car waiting for me.
JDRoest said:
The other problem is that a lot of meters want exact change, or sell time in 10-20-30 minute increments, so the council sets £1.60, I only have 2 £1 coins on me, and I get to pay 40p for nothing. And if I'm late out of the shops (eg a queue somewhere, or I fancy something else), then there's a £60+ ticket on the car waiting for me.
Thats the one that pisses me off the most - and it is done deliberately to fleece us.Has to be one of the only things where you OVERPAY every single time you use it. Think you'll be an hour, pay for that, only takes twenty mins - you've overpaid by 200% Kerching!
JDRoest said:
Cost of parking - and the availability of parking. You might not want to believe it (much like the councils) but quite a few people have already listed parking as their no1 gripe in this thread alone!
2-3 quid is a deal breaker though - if I need to pop into town and buy something very quickly - lets say a bit of stationary, it's £5 for the stationary - and £2-3 for the parking. (Even £1.20 in Kingston iirc). The parking will be no where near where I want to be, and half the time I'll have to park in a multistory and walk 10 minutes to the shop.
Or, I can drive the extra 10 minutes to a Tesco where I'll park in the same acre as the shop itself, and save myself £2 in the process.
The other problem is that a lot of meters want exact change, or sell time in 10-20-30 minute increments, so the council sets £1.60, I only have 2 £1 coins on me, and I get to pay 40p for nothing. And if I'm late out of the shops (eg a queue somewhere, or I fancy something else), then there's a £60+ ticket on the car waiting for me.
Possibly part of the problem is people who "just need to pop in to town for something quick" doing so in the car in the first place?2-3 quid is a deal breaker though - if I need to pop into town and buy something very quickly - lets say a bit of stationary, it's £5 for the stationary - and £2-3 for the parking. (Even £1.20 in Kingston iirc). The parking will be no where near where I want to be, and half the time I'll have to park in a multistory and walk 10 minutes to the shop.
Or, I can drive the extra 10 minutes to a Tesco where I'll park in the same acre as the shop itself, and save myself £2 in the process.
The other problem is that a lot of meters want exact change, or sell time in 10-20-30 minute increments, so the council sets £1.60, I only have 2 £1 coins on me, and I get to pay 40p for nothing. And if I'm late out of the shops (eg a queue somewhere, or I fancy something else), then there's a £60+ ticket on the car waiting for me.
If I do have to go physically (rather than electronically) shopping, I usually go to Epsom, Kingston, or Guildford. All of these charge for parking at varying rates, and the challenge is usually one of finding a parking space in the first place, not actually paying for it.
If parking were free in these places, it wouldn't mean more people shopping there. It would, at most, mean more people trying to shop there, then getting hacked off at their inability to find a parking space and driving to an out of town shopping centre anyway.
The other issue, of course, is what "the town centre" actually means any more? Traditionally, the shops in the centre of a town or village would've served the people living in that centre. Increasingly, though, people just don't live in town centres. They've moved out to the suburbs, leaving the odd flat above shops, but in many cases nothing but commercial premises.
People might moan about charging for parking, but traditionally this wouldn't have happened because people wouldn't have driven the shops in the first place, because they would've lived next to them. There's no point making parking free if you don't have the space to build extra car parks to accommodate the increase in demand.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned community cohesion yet.
Once upon a time, housewifes et al. would wonder down to the shops to get the daily consumables. But this wasn't solely a trip to buy things. It was a trip to bump into friends and catch up on the local gossip.
The fact that most non-immigrant communities have now disintegrated is, to me, as much of a problem as for the local shopkeeper as any local authority policy. The fact is that, 50 years ago, a trip to the shops used to be about much more about shopping.
Think of your mental image of an immigrant community high street in any major UK city and what do you see? Lots of shops selling generic goods with no unique value proposition but also - and this is the crux of it - lots of people speaking to each other.
Now picture a gentrified town centre which many local authorities would consider a success (at least financially) and what do you see? People passing through so-called glocal brands buying their coffee and sandwiches and, if they are talking to anyone, it's someone somewhere else on a mobile phone. The social cohesion has gone and the town centre has become just about convenience and only that. It offers no unique experience, and in the age of the experience economy, that's a bit of a problem.
Once upon a time, housewifes et al. would wonder down to the shops to get the daily consumables. But this wasn't solely a trip to buy things. It was a trip to bump into friends and catch up on the local gossip.
The fact that most non-immigrant communities have now disintegrated is, to me, as much of a problem as for the local shopkeeper as any local authority policy. The fact is that, 50 years ago, a trip to the shops used to be about much more about shopping.
Think of your mental image of an immigrant community high street in any major UK city and what do you see? Lots of shops selling generic goods with no unique value proposition but also - and this is the crux of it - lots of people speaking to each other.
Now picture a gentrified town centre which many local authorities would consider a success (at least financially) and what do you see? People passing through so-called glocal brands buying their coffee and sandwiches and, if they are talking to anyone, it's someone somewhere else on a mobile phone. The social cohesion has gone and the town centre has become just about convenience and only that. It offers no unique experience, and in the age of the experience economy, that's a bit of a problem.
Kermit power said:
If I do have to go physically (rather than electronically) shopping, I usually go to Epsom, Kingston, or Guildford. All of these charge for parking at varying rates, and the challenge is usually one of finding a parking space in the first place, not actually paying for it.
To be fair, Epsom, Guildford and Kingston represent something very close to one end of the scale as far as busy-ness and scarcity of parking go!You'll also have the option of a lot of small/intermediate shopping areas that sell the basics.
As far as allowing access to the town centre for the zip-in-and-outers and the pedestrian wafters goes, I like what my nearest town (Sherborne) has done.
The main street is pedestrianised with bollards preventing access - but only from 1100 - 1600 every day. Before that it's a one way street with yellow lines all the way down (and I can't recall seeing a traffic warden).
So on the rare occasions I need to zip in, I just have to get in early.
In addition, there's a car park just round the back of the main street with 20 minute parking for a princely 20p. Ideal if you just need to nip in to the bank etc.
Kermit power said:
People might moan about charging for parking, but traditionally this wouldn't have happened because people wouldn't have driven the shops in the first place, because they would've lived next to them.
Or they would have had plenty of time to walk or get the bus while their husband was at work. That model is obsolete.Twincam16 said:
The only advantage out-of-town malls have over a town centre is the free parking.
I'd disagree with that, the other advantage they have is space.Go in to (lets say) Currys in your city centre. Pick any type of product (e.g. a 15" laptop or a 40" TV) and they will have a few choices.
Now go you your local out of town branch, they'll typically have twice as many to choose from.
I'm probably at odds with many experiences here because the local city centre is basically all chain stores. There are a few independents that have stood the test of time (an army surplus store is one of them).
This is not a new thing, even when I was a kid there were few independents and typically those that did appear didn't last long.
About 20-25 years ago two shopping malls were opened. They were never brilliant and now stand pretty much empty. 15 years ago it was announced that a new centre would be built, it required the local newspaper office to be demolished (it was empty, they moved out of town) along with a car park and some council offices. Its 74,000sq metres of retail space. and there are plans afoot to expand it to include:
| Use | Size (sq/m) |
|---|---|
| Retail Anchor (Use Class A1) | 10,600 |
| Retail Units (A1 - A3) | 24,100 |
| Hotel (C1) | 5,600 |
| Residential (C3) | 17,900 |
| Cinema (D2) | 7,800 |
I guess its really like an out of town shopping centre in town. Ikea is a 5 minute walk and around that are a bunch of other stores in large warehouse type buildings.
I'm told people will travel from far and wide to visit because of the shopping.
Personally I avoid shopping of any sort as much as possible, but I'll always check out options online first, any expensive stuff (e.g. electronics) I buy online (far better choice). Typically I use city centre for christmas shopping because I can wander around a bit and pick up 10 different things in one go, its quicker than online I think!
I guess that other big cities are going the same way?
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
I am not saying you are wrong at all, just I have zero faith in junior politicians/borough councils to do the right thing.
And you are right to have no faith in them, but there are plenty of places you can buy food, clothes and other stuff, so don't worry about it.Kermit power said:
If I do have to go physically (rather than electronically) shopping, I usually go to Epsom, Kingston, or Guildford. All of these charge for parking at varying rates, and the challenge is usually one of finding a parking space in the first place, not actually paying for it.
Ok, you've picked 3 towns where the high street is still just about viable, but what about New Malden, Worcester Park, North Cheam or even Cheam Village? Let alone smaller high streets like Ewell.Some high streets still work, look at Tolworth for instance. Walton was still ok a few years ago.
But compare both New Malden and Worcester Park with Tolworth and Walton though. The latter have a line of parking both sides of the high street because the council didn't steal the parking spaces and building out into the road, unlike New Malden and Worcester Park, both of which had 4 lane high streets with 2 lanes for parking.
With the many build outs at those two, there is barely half the space now for cars. And New Malden has been screwed around with so badly, you'd need your brains tested to take a car within 2 miles of it.
JDRoest said:
Kermit power said:
If I do have to go physically (rather than electronically) shopping, I usually go to Epsom, Kingston, or Guildford. All of these charge for parking at varying rates, and the challenge is usually one of finding a parking space in the first place, not actually paying for it.
Ok, you've picked 3 towns where the high street is still just about viable, but what about New Malden, Worcester Park, North Cheam or even Cheam Village? Let alone smaller high streets like Ewell.Some high streets still work, look at Tolworth for instance. Walton was still ok a few years ago.
But compare both New Malden and Worcester Park with Tolworth and Walton though. The latter have a line of parking both sides of the high street because the council didn't steal the parking spaces and building out into the road, unlike New Malden and Worcester Park, both of which had 4 lane high streets with 2 lanes for parking.
With the many build outs at those two, there is barely half the space now for cars. And New Malden has been screwed around with so badly, you'd need your brains tested to take a car within 2 miles of it.
I don't generally drive to Ewell, as it's only just round the corner, so typically walk rather than drive, but the High Street there doesn't particularly seem to be struggling. It has an independent butcher (although I prefer the one in Epsom), independent pet shop, independent audiovisual shop, independent cafes, a Coop, a Sainsburys Local, an independent white goods shop, various hairdressers, estate agents, pubs, etc, etc... There is free parking on Saturday afternoons, but it's cheap the rest of the week anyway, plus there are a few free spots on the High Street itself. It's certainly a viable High Street.
Cheam Village doesn't seem to do too badly either, although again I've not been there often.
If there is a "High Street" in North Cheam, I don't know where it is? As far as I'm concerned, North Cheam is just the s
t-hole either side of the A24?New Malden and Walton I can't comment on, as I've never had call to go there. Tolworth always looks like the arse end of rough on the way through to Kingston, so I've never felt the desire to try and stop.
JDRoest said:
And New Malden has been screwed around with so badly, you'd need your brains tested to take a car within 2 miles of it.
But why would you want to? There are buses passing through the High Street every couple of minutes and a Waitrose with free parking for larger shopping trips. In fact it's rather busy these days as the London sprawl has practically engulfed the area (try parking down the road in Raynes Park!). It's actually a good example of a high street with nearby out-of-town shopping. 2 miles away covers Norbiton and Kingston so if you can't find parking then you're not looking hard enough. Cheam Village has a large car park literally around the corner, but I haven't been round there for a few years.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff