Why is the "death of the town center" a problem?
Discussion
JonRB said:
I think it depends.
The way I see it there are two types of shopper. There are the "I know what I want to buy and I have come here to buy it" types. More often men, but obviously not exclusively. These are the types who will do most of their shopping online or go to a retail park.
Then there is the type who like to "go out shopping" and make impulse purchases. Often, but again not always, women. For them, "going shopping" is an enjoyable way of spending an afternoon and you just don't get that online or at a retail park. Unless that out of town retail park is like a Mall or Shopping Centre.
Personally, as the latter type of shopper, I'd be sad if we no longer had High Street shopping as I like wandering round the shops of a Saturday afternoon.
The way I see it there are two types of shopper. There are the "I know what I want to buy and I have come here to buy it" types. More often men, but obviously not exclusively. These are the types who will do most of their shopping online or go to a retail park.
Then there is the type who like to "go out shopping" and make impulse purchases. Often, but again not always, women. For them, "going shopping" is an enjoyable way of spending an afternoon and you just don't get that online or at a retail park. Unless that out of town retail park is like a Mall or Shopping Centre.
Personally, as the latter type of shopper, I'd be sad if we no longer had High Street shopping as I like wandering round the shops of a Saturday afternoon.
I'm the latter type as well. I like to browse and I do buy a lot of things on impulse, which is something the overly-rational internet approach can't really do, regardless of those irritating 'people who like this also like this' things - all that does is categorise people, rather than allowing users to really browse properly.Also, one thing I really appreciate is being ableto talk to people who know what they're on about and try things out before I buy them.
Put it this way. A few months ago, I wanted to buy an amp. I could have gone on the internet, put in a few well-known names, found a best price and clicked on it. But that would tell me absolutely diddly-squat and I possibly wouldn't actually know whether what I'd got was any good or not, and if I didn't like it, it'd be too late.
Instead, I went into a few shops, took along a CD, and had a comparative listen to a few amps. The best one for what I wanted (most straightforward equaliser, clearest sound for the kind of music I wanted to listen to etc) was neither the most expensive nor the cheapest, and I was also able to deal with the seller face-to-face and haggle the price down a bit. It was also good to talk to the staff, ask about various features of the amps, which speakers work best with them and so on. Not only did I get a good deal, I also got money off vouchers should I buy anything from this place again.
It's the same with trying on clothes, test-driving cars and for sale, sampling cheese from the deli counter, fiddling with electronics, sitting on chairs and sofas to make sure they're comfortable, wandering round book and music shops allowing things I hadn't considered to catch my eye, or just basically feeling the quality (or lack of) of various goods before deciding to buy them. No matter what, you can't do this on the internet. You can go off the polarised, biased, often bulls
t 'testimonies' of others, or follow the recommendations of entirely partisan corporate search functions, but you can't truly try out anything for yourself until it's too late and whatever you've paid for is sitting on the doorstep.Also, I like the immediacy and uncomplicated nature of paying for things with cash or card. I have the money, I give the money to the person behind the counter, and that's that. No potentially unsecure transmissions of personal details, no subscriptions, no insistence that I set up an account or agree to have my inbox filled with spam, just hand over money, job done, have a nice day.
Twincam16 said:
Precisely - and it's not just the French, you find the same in just about any given European country.
I'm finding something increasingly antisocial about the British and I do wonder whether it's internet shopping that's doing it (per capita we do more of it than anyone, even the Americans). On here I read no end of narcissistic gittishness about avoiding having to mix with 'the plebs' or talk to anyone or have to have a face-to-face conversation about anything.
I live in an internet dead-zone and I love it. I hate the experience of internet shopping (I don't trust putting by bank details on a website for starters), I don't buy anything on the internet unless there really is no choice, and I do as much as I can face-to-face in the high street as possible.
And I don't care if it costs me a tiny bit more. Why? Because I'd rather keep people in work and live somewhere that's bustling and thriving than spend the same amount of extra money on unemployment benefits while my town turns into an empty, intimidating place full of boarded-up shops and rudderless unemployed people with nothing to do while those people who do manage to cling to work hole themselves and their families up in their houses communicating only via screens. The whole thing is starting to resemble a dystopian nightmare.
Also, retail is the main sector for mass working-class employment these days. Having turned our manufacturing sector into a slimmed-down, automated, specialised thing, we moved the bulk of that unskilled/semi-skilled population into retail. Now it seems the isolationist, computer-worshipping middle-class are busy making the physical retail sector redundant, while also reading and not paying for their newspaper online as well so the local kids can't even get paper rounds.
WHAT ARE PEOPLE GOING TO DO?
Because don't come crying to me if we end up with repeat performances of last summer's riots again and again and again, spreading further every year as more and more people chase fewer and fewer jobs and entire families (and in some cases communities) end up unable to find work.
We can't all be goateed company directors or 'ontrapranuurs'((c) every shiny-suited delusionist on Dragon's Den), nor can we access the cash or the nous to 'just start your own business' as is so often blithely spouted on here. A huge proportion of the population needs to work for someone, and we are talking millions. You can't just write them off or tell them to do something else totally theoretical. You have to create opportunities on a mass scale.
Personally I'd be in favour of some kind of internet transaction tax to pay for the damage that the wrecking-ball of the internet is wreaking on the economy. There are some US states that do this already.
Something has to be done, because otherwise we'll end up relentlessly pursuing a business model in which profits are continually maximised for a dwindling few at the expense of more and more essentially redundant masses in the name of 'efficiency'. Otherwise you're looking at revolution.
No doubt some of the chalkstripes on here, in the darker recesses of their minds, would advocate swatting the working class into the gutter. After all, it's their fault for not 'adapting'.
I completely disagree. What's the point of an economy - or a world for that matter - that seems more bothered about the wellbeing and livelihood of machines than it is of people? What is the world for exactly - the home of the human race, or a giant footstool for the upper middle class?
Sorry twincam but everything you say there just says "Failing education system for many years" to me.I'm finding something increasingly antisocial about the British and I do wonder whether it's internet shopping that's doing it (per capita we do more of it than anyone, even the Americans). On here I read no end of narcissistic gittishness about avoiding having to mix with 'the plebs' or talk to anyone or have to have a face-to-face conversation about anything.
I live in an internet dead-zone and I love it. I hate the experience of internet shopping (I don't trust putting by bank details on a website for starters), I don't buy anything on the internet unless there really is no choice, and I do as much as I can face-to-face in the high street as possible.
And I don't care if it costs me a tiny bit more. Why? Because I'd rather keep people in work and live somewhere that's bustling and thriving than spend the same amount of extra money on unemployment benefits while my town turns into an empty, intimidating place full of boarded-up shops and rudderless unemployed people with nothing to do while those people who do manage to cling to work hole themselves and their families up in their houses communicating only via screens. The whole thing is starting to resemble a dystopian nightmare.
Also, retail is the main sector for mass working-class employment these days. Having turned our manufacturing sector into a slimmed-down, automated, specialised thing, we moved the bulk of that unskilled/semi-skilled population into retail. Now it seems the isolationist, computer-worshipping middle-class are busy making the physical retail sector redundant, while also reading and not paying for their newspaper online as well so the local kids can't even get paper rounds.
WHAT ARE PEOPLE GOING TO DO?
Because don't come crying to me if we end up with repeat performances of last summer's riots again and again and again, spreading further every year as more and more people chase fewer and fewer jobs and entire families (and in some cases communities) end up unable to find work.
We can't all be goateed company directors or 'ontrapranuurs'((c) every shiny-suited delusionist on Dragon's Den), nor can we access the cash or the nous to 'just start your own business' as is so often blithely spouted on here. A huge proportion of the population needs to work for someone, and we are talking millions. You can't just write them off or tell them to do something else totally theoretical. You have to create opportunities on a mass scale.
Personally I'd be in favour of some kind of internet transaction tax to pay for the damage that the wrecking-ball of the internet is wreaking on the economy. There are some US states that do this already.
Something has to be done, because otherwise we'll end up relentlessly pursuing a business model in which profits are continually maximised for a dwindling few at the expense of more and more essentially redundant masses in the name of 'efficiency'. Otherwise you're looking at revolution.
No doubt some of the chalkstripes on here, in the darker recesses of their minds, would advocate swatting the working class into the gutter. After all, it's their fault for not 'adapting'.
I completely disagree. What's the point of an economy - or a world for that matter - that seems more bothered about the wellbeing and livelihood of machines than it is of people? What is the world for exactly - the home of the human race, or a giant footstool for the upper middle class?
High street retail jobs should not be some propping up the economy. Plus the jobs are still there just located off the highstreet in a retail park.
I don't want to deal with the people in shops because most of the time it's hard work. If you can actually under stand what they say, you don't want the information anyway. I don't go shopping for a chat about my pet insurance when trying to pay.
Then there are the other customers, rude, thick and generally get in the way of what should be a simple, find, buy, leave process....shudder. Perhaps if the education system was better I'd prefer to be around these people and they'd have some concept of being in the f
king way of everybody, and step aside while the figure out what that fluid is coming from their mouth that they left open.Basically twincam you seem to be arguing for a communist state where people are employed for the sake of it in positions defined by old concepts rather than educated to enable them to work in new positions opened up by new technology.
Somebody has to keep the internet shop working and maintained, the stock has to be picked, and someone has to deliver it. Why would you destroy those jobs to employ someone in a shop where the customer doesn't want to be?
The 'death' of the highstreet isn't a problem as far as I am concerned.
We do all our grocery shopping on a weekly basis at a out of town supermarket and on the, rare, occassions we need clothing etc I will drive to a Retail Mall, or shop online.
At the Supermarket we will usually get there before 8am on a Saturday and similarly at the Mall we will get there early. In both instances therefore it is a largely stress and congestion free experience.
We do all our grocery shopping on a weekly basis at a out of town supermarket and on the, rare, occassions we need clothing etc I will drive to a Retail Mall, or shop online.
At the Supermarket we will usually get there before 8am on a Saturday and similarly at the Mall we will get there early. In both instances therefore it is a largely stress and congestion free experience.
Munter said:
I don't want to deal with the people in shops because most of the time it's hard work. If you can actually under stand what they say, you don't want the information anyway. I don't go shopping for a chat about my pet insurance when trying to pay.
Then there are the other customers, rude, thick and generally get in the way of what should be a simple, find, buy, leave process....shudder. Perhaps if the education system was better I'd prefer to be around these people and they'd have some concept of being in the fking way of everybody, and step aside while the figure out what that fluid is coming from their mouth that they left open.
There you've just come across as an antisocial, vindictive aThen there are the other customers, rude, thick and generally get in the way of what should be a simple, find, buy, leave process....shudder. Perhaps if the education system was better I'd prefer to be around these people and they'd have some concept of being in the f
king way of everybody, and step aside while the figure out what that fluid is coming from their mouth that they left open.hole full of generalised opinions. I've worked in shops before now, and as I like to shop physically I'm one of those 'other customers'. According to you, back when I was a teenager working in Woolworths and BHS I was hard work and you couldn't understand what I said. Nowadays, because I shop in high street shops I'm rude, thick and get in your way.You're bloody lucky I'm sociable and polite, really.
Munter said:
Basically twincam you seem to be arguing for a communist state where people are employed for the sake of it in positions defined by old concepts rather than educated to enable them to work in new positions opened up by new technology.
Somebody has to keep the internet shop working and maintained, the stock has to be picked, and someone has to deliver it. Why would you destroy those jobs to employ someone in a shop where the customer doesn't want to be?
Who says I'm destroying these jobs? All I'm saying is that the internet business model is designed around tiny numbers of people compared to previous ones, at a time when populations everywhere are expanding. New technology isn't 'opening up new positions', it's merely wiping others out.Somebody has to keep the internet shop working and maintained, the stock has to be picked, and someone has to deliver it. Why would you destroy those jobs to employ someone in a shop where the customer doesn't want to be?
Also, you clearly don't have a clue as to what communism is. Parts of communism do involve full employment, but what's wrong with that? You seem to be advocating increased unemployment as though it's a good thing (and I bet you don't want to pay for the societal consequences of that, do you?). However, the key concepts of communism revolve around ownership (that is, the workers own their business as a co-operative, rather than a boss and shareholders - better have a word with those Stalinist subversives at John Lewis and Waitrose as they've been doing this for years), and a planned economy, largely based around export, in which people are shifted around jobs depending on what markets outside the communist system want, so if they want grain, people will be sent to work on farms and so on.
And that's before we get to the key component of communism - rationing. In a communist country, the very notion of 'shopping' as we're discussing here doesn't even bloody exist!
I just think we should be taking measures to protect communities and create jobs on a large scale, simply because the cost of not doing will be far greater and have far graver consequences. Creating a country of selfish, backstabbing 'individualists' isn't working.
As for your comments about the education system - I agree to a degree that our education system is severely flawed, but mainly because it completely ignores the notion of learning trade skills until it's almost too late, then either academises them or treats people who choose to do them as second-class citizens compared to people who go to university. This is wrong and it should stop.
However, there is no denying that, within any given population, no matter how good your education system is, there will always be large numbers of people who just aren't going to end up going to university, building or repairing things or running a business. These people will always need to work for someone, and if they can't, they will be a burden that you end up paying for.
Insanity Magnet said:
Twincam16 said:
...
Something has to be done, because otherwise we'll end up relentlessly pursuing a business model in which profits are continually maximised for a dwindling few at the expense of more and more essentially redundant masses in the name of 'efficiency'. Otherwise you're looking at revolution.
Been like this for ever and a day...Something has to be done, because otherwise we'll end up relentlessly pursuing a business model in which profits are continually maximised for a dwindling few at the expense of more and more essentially redundant masses in the name of 'efficiency'. Otherwise you're looking at revolution.
Take profit (aka "efficiency") out of the equasion and you end up with an unreliable supply of unwanted products at high prices.
On the plus side, the UK has done extremely well out of capitalism at the expense of others - look at the living conditions of the Chinese who are making a lot of the goods we consume, for example. What we are now seeing is a rebalancing of international wealth to a much fairer level and I can't see any way to stop it.
Twincam16 said:
Creating a country of selfish, backstabbing 'individualists' isn't working.
Perhaps, but none of your ideas will change that. Whether it's Bob the Banker, Bob the Builder, or Bob Crow - everyone will do what they can do better themselves - whether it is under the prentence of a 'fairer' system or blatant profiteering. The education system doesn't 'academise' anyone - it was the last government who decided to set a goal for 50% of school leavers into university. Back to topic, if people want to shop in out-of-town stores then let them - it leaves the high street for more interesting shops.Twincam16 said:
there will always be large numbers of people who just aren't going to end up going to university, building or repairing things or running a business. These people will always need to work for someone, and if they can't, they will be a burden that you end up paying for.
But why should those people be working in a shop, over a warehouse, or delivering goods, or another role created by whatever new technology comes up with. Why MUST we have them in a shop on the high street? Employed yes. In a shop on a high street...well only if there are customers wanting to use the shop, and they want to work there over somewhere else.Full employment is an impossibility in any society unless people are forced to take jobs and or doing jobs they are not qualified for.
In your world, we'd be still employing people as chimney sweeps on the same scale as before. Even though there are no fires in most houses. Just to ensure full employment. It's madness.
Going against the grain, but I think things are improving.
Independent high street stores have been up against the wall for over a decade - they can't compete with chains on price and convenience. However, price and convenience aren't so relevant to the high street anymore. What is relevant is making your shop a nice place to be. Near me I have a local bike shop (no Halfords in the town centre) that once did a small repair for me free, an indepedent record store with staff who I can chat to about new music and who can recommend new albums far better than any algorithm, and a Waterstone's (the only chain) with a semi-decent cafe inside. The one thing I would say is missing is a coffee shop (as in, sells beans, grounds etc) that allows you to try before buying. These places, I don't mind paying extra for.
For all the moaning about parking, I've not seen a town centre without at least one multi-storey, which is always full at any vaguely busy time. There's not enough space in town centres for everyone to drive up to their favourite shop - get used to it. If you're that attached to your car, pay. If not, there are alternatives (a lot of towns could do this better - I spent half an hour chugging round one recently, even though I would have used a P&R - there was one, but it wasn't signposted.). For bulky items, retail parks/online are the best solution - no point encouraging shops onto the high street if there's a good reason to have them somewhere else.
For convenience, online is the way to go, and I don't see a problem with that. High streets should be the place for impulse/enjoyable shopping (as someone above mentioned), retail parks for when you need a physical presence but also easy car access. Easy.
Independent high street stores have been up against the wall for over a decade - they can't compete with chains on price and convenience. However, price and convenience aren't so relevant to the high street anymore. What is relevant is making your shop a nice place to be. Near me I have a local bike shop (no Halfords in the town centre) that once did a small repair for me free, an indepedent record store with staff who I can chat to about new music and who can recommend new albums far better than any algorithm, and a Waterstone's (the only chain) with a semi-decent cafe inside. The one thing I would say is missing is a coffee shop (as in, sells beans, grounds etc) that allows you to try before buying. These places, I don't mind paying extra for.
For all the moaning about parking, I've not seen a town centre without at least one multi-storey, which is always full at any vaguely busy time. There's not enough space in town centres for everyone to drive up to their favourite shop - get used to it. If you're that attached to your car, pay. If not, there are alternatives (a lot of towns could do this better - I spent half an hour chugging round one recently, even though I would have used a P&R - there was one, but it wasn't signposted.). For bulky items, retail parks/online are the best solution - no point encouraging shops onto the high street if there's a good reason to have them somewhere else.
For convenience, online is the way to go, and I don't see a problem with that. High streets should be the place for impulse/enjoyable shopping (as someone above mentioned), retail parks for when you need a physical presence but also easy car access. Easy.
Munter said:
Twincam16 said:
there will always be large numbers of people who just aren't going to end up going to university, building or repairing things or running a business. These people will always need to work for someone, and if they can't, they will be a burden that you end up paying for.
But why should those people be working in a shop, over a warehouse, or delivering goods, or another role created by whatever new technology comes up with. Why MUST we have them in a shop on the high street? Employed yes. In a shop on a high street...well only if there are customers wanting to use the shop, and they want to work there over somewhere else.Full employment is an impossibility in any society unless people are forced to take jobs and or doing jobs they are not qualified for.
In your world, we'd be still employing people as chimney sweeps on the same scale as before. Even though there are no fires in most houses. Just to ensure full employment. It's madness.
Please explain to me how the internet and new technology has created more working-class jobs than it has destroyed.
Council planners wanted to discourage people from driving into the town centre. They succeeded. Well done. Slow handclap. They failed to provide an alternative transport solution which motorists would choose to take over driving elsewhere, and as a result town centre shopping is dying.
Predictably, the response planners suggest to this is to make the experience of driving to out of town shopping worse - in which case even more people will just buy online instead.
Typical example of dogmatic bureaucrats trying to force large swathes of the public to behave in ways they do not wish. It shouldn't even be possible in an ostensibly democratic society, but it happens absolutely all the time - there is always some group, some unelected quango or professional body or committee or simple consensus of those with power and influence pushing policy in a direction which pisses off the people on the ground.
Predictably, the response planners suggest to this is to make the experience of driving to out of town shopping worse - in which case even more people will just buy online instead.
Typical example of dogmatic bureaucrats trying to force large swathes of the public to behave in ways they do not wish. It shouldn't even be possible in an ostensibly democratic society, but it happens absolutely all the time - there is always some group, some unelected quango or professional body or committee or simple consensus of those with power and influence pushing policy in a direction which pisses off the people on the ground.
Twincam16 said:
There you've just come across as an antisocial, vindictive ahole full of generalised opinions. I've worked in shops before now, and as I like to shop physically I'm one of those 'other customers'. According to you, back when I was a teenager working in Woolworths and BHS I was hard work and you couldn't understand what I said. Nowadays, because I shop in high street shops I'm rude, thick and get in your way.
You're bloody lucky I'm sociable and polite, really.
I would discuss each individual on the highstreet, but I'm not sure we have the time or the space on the internet to do so. So I'm somewhat forced to generalise. And in general most people shopping in our town center are pretty dim. For example they will stop in doorways, and other pinch points and swear at you if you ask them to step aside a little. They swear at their kids for misbehaving, and at their partners for not caring. They will barge to the front of queues or fail to see free tills when at the front of a queue. Some people may be exceptions to that. But most...not in my experience.hole full of generalised opinions. I've worked in shops before now, and as I like to shop physically I'm one of those 'other customers'. According to you, back when I was a teenager working in Woolworths and BHS I was hard work and you couldn't understand what I said. Nowadays, because I shop in high street shops I'm rude, thick and get in your way.You're bloody lucky I'm sociable and polite, really.
And sorry if you like the person on the till I went to the other day, have to have a 2nd employee translate for you as you converse with customers. Making everything take twice as long as it needed to and making the whole experience excruciatingly embarrassing. But perhaps choose a more appropriate career. Like maintaining a websites infrastructure, or warehouse picking, or deliveries.... As a shopper you never know when you will get that person on a till, or ask for their help with something. But you can be sure the internet will not have the same problem.
Basically shopping is hell. How anybody enjoys that process of abuse, discomfort, embarrassment, frustration, and obstruction is totally beyond me. I'd genuinely sooner have norovirus and spend the time in bed / in the toilet again, than go shopping. It really is horrible. It wouldn't have to be. If people in general were polite, thought about others also trying to shop, and were able to communicate effectively. It wouldn't be so bad. Never happens though does it.
Given all that I'm still not against successful high streets. But there doesn't seem to be any compelling reason a town MUST have one, over an out of centre retail setup.
sparkythecat said:
The French seem able to manage their town centres much better than we do. Sure, they have out of town retail sites for the daily needs, but there are many more smaller shops in the town centres selling niche and high end goods that appear to be doing well. Street cafe bars, well kept public spaces and thriving street markets are places where people can meet and relax and take pleasure in enjoying a shopping and socialising experience.
Rather than trying to relax and enjoy a similar retail experience, we Brits seem preoccupied with bargain pricing and chain store merchandise. As a consequence, our town centres have become by necessity what our spending patterns have dictated.
Re. the French towns doing better than our own, they have quite stringent regulation about change of use for commercial premises. So if you own a Rather than trying to relax and enjoy a similar retail experience, we Brits seem preoccupied with bargain pricing and chain store merchandise. As a consequence, our town centres have become by necessity what our spending patterns have dictated.
Edited by sparkythecat on Thursday 3rd January 12:34
bakery for example, and sell it, it can only be sold as a bakery.
youngsyr said:
What we're talking about here is capitalism, and unfortunately it has been demonstrated over and over again that it's the least worst method of organising our society.
Take profit (aka "efficiency") out of the equasion and you end up with an unreliable supply of unwanted products at high prices.
On the plus side, the UK has done extremely well out of capitalism at the expense of others - look at the living conditions of the Chinese who are making a lot of the goods we consume, for example. What we are now seeing is a rebalancing of international wealth to a much fairer level and I can't see any way to stop it.
Add in ever improving efficiency (automation) and increasing global population and things probably aren't looking too rosy (for the middle class west, anyway).Take profit (aka "efficiency") out of the equasion and you end up with an unreliable supply of unwanted products at high prices.
On the plus side, the UK has done extremely well out of capitalism at the expense of others - look at the living conditions of the Chinese who are making a lot of the goods we consume, for example. What we are now seeing is a rebalancing of international wealth to a much fairer level and I can't see any way to stop it.
Edited by Insanity Magnet on Thursday 3rd January 14:32
mrmr96 said:
Because small local shops tend to be run by small local shop keepers who in turn spend money locally and employ local people. They also pay local tax (business rates) and also corporation tax in the UK..
Local business Basically any town centre is a gold mine for councils, if you want to pay them less, shop online.
At some point, I think people are going to have to accept that many of our old town centres are just too big and/or too poorly laid out to compete in the new online and out of town world, so the answer is to completely review what we mean by town centre. I think that's going to involve some serious downsizing and rejigging of many places. The linear high street with big retailers is dead and it isn't coming back, so the future has to be independents and artisans offering something that differentiates the centre to the "big box" outer ring. We have to make town centres enjoyable places to go to. Slight tangent, but look at the redevelopment St Pancras and King's Cross. Both are now places I can quite happily meet friends for a drink, even though none of us have any intention of catching a train. We're quite happy to chill out and watch the world go by.
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