What has the EU done to you?

[Ozzie Osmond]

Caulkhead said:

Now a question for you, there are over half a billion people in the EU - how many have had the opportunity to vote whether they want to be in the EU or not?

Oh dear, have you got stuck with that old gramophone record "the British voted for the EEC but it's changed its name to EU"?

Meanwhile you might like to figure out who votes for the House of Lords. And for completeness I'd better mention those unelected Germans in Buckingham Palace again.

[s2art]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Caulkhead said:

Now a question for you, there are over half a billion people in the EU - how many have had the opportunity to vote whether they want to be in the EU or not?

Oh dear, have you got stuck with that old gramophone record "the British voted for the EEC but it's changed its name to EU"?

Meanwhile you might like to figure out who votes for the House of Lords. And for completeness I'd better mention those unelected Germans in Buckingham Palace again.

The HoL (or the Queen) does not make law. All it can do is act as a quality assurance body and suggest improvements to what the Commons wish to enact. You could do the same, essential, job with a highly qualified team of civil servants. OTOH we can utilise a national asset and let the Lords perform the task in a better way.

[oyster]

einsign said:

oyster said:

If I was to reply saying there were no negatives, only benefits - would you say I was constructing a mature, reasoned argument?

Can you list the positives please. As a business owner who manufactures and exports products made in this country I would be keen to know?

- British influence in single market regulations plus greater regulation stability, as less rules will be subject to UK party political changes every 4 years or so.
- Harmonised tariffs
- Potential of harmonised currency
- Wider pool of candidates for recruitment
- Easy cross-border travel.

Now, it may be that those benefits aren't enough for you to be pro-EU. That's ok, nothing wrong with that. But to suggest there are NO benefits whatsoever is rather silly.

[s2art]

oyster said:

einsign said:

oyster said:

If I was to reply saying there were no negatives, only benefits - would you say I was constructing a mature, reasoned argument?

Can you list the positives please. As a business owner who manufactures and exports products made in this country I would be keen to know?

- British influence in single market regulations plus greater regulation stability, as less rules will be subject to UK party political changes every 4 years or so.
- Harmonised tariffs
- Potential of harmonised currency
- Wider pool of candidates for recruitment
- Easy cross-border travel.

Now, it may be that those benefits aren't enough for you to be pro-EU. That's ok, nothing wrong with that. But to suggest there are NO benefits whatsoever is rather silly.

Compared to what though?

Harmonised tariffs? Doesnt Norway and Switzerland get these too?

Potential of harmonised currency? Run that by me again. One size fits all doesnt seem to work very well.

Wider pool of candidates for recruitment? Thats simply a function of immigration control, we can open our doors to good candidates from the whole world if we wish.

Easy cross border travel? When I was a kid, before the UK joined the common market, there seemed to be no difficulty traveling to Europe. Needed a passport then, still need a passport.

[jamoor]

s2art said:

Compared to what though?

Harmonised tariffs? Doesnt Norway and Switzerland get these too?

Potential of harmonised currency? Run that by me again. One size fits all doesnt seem to work very well.

Wider pool of candidates for recruitment? Thats simply a function of immigration control, we can open our doors to good candidates from the whole world if we wish.

Easy cross border travel? When I was a kid, before the UK joined the common market, there seemed to be no difficulty traveling to Europe. Needed a passport then, still need a passport.

Ever tried to employ someone from outside the EU?

No different paperwork required to employ an EU citizen.

[s2art]

jamoor said:

s2art said:

Compared to what though?

Harmonised tariffs? Doesnt Norway and Switzerland get these too?

Potential of harmonised currency? Run that by me again. One size fits all doesnt seem to work very well.

Wider pool of candidates for recruitment? Thats simply a function of immigration control, we can open our doors to good candidates from the whole world if we wish.

Easy cross border travel? When I was a kid, before the UK joined the common market, there seemed to be no difficulty traveling to Europe. Needed a passport then, still need a passport.

Ever tried to employ someone from outside the EU?

No different paperwork required to employ an EU citizen.

That wasnt the point made. The point was about the pool of candidates. I note that there are plenty of non-EU nationals working in the UK, particularly in the larger multi-national companies. So it cant be that hard.

[otolith]

I don't really understand the argument that some of the "good" things that EU membership has forced upon us could not have been implemented using domestic legislation. If we would not have implemented them by (democratic) choice, they aren't good things.

[jamoor]

s2art said:

That wasnt the point made. The point was about the pool of candidates. I note that there are plenty of non-EU nationals working in the UK, particularly in the larger multi-national companies. So it cant be that hard.

Sounds to me like only multi nationals can afford the rigmarole of hiring someone from a non EU country?

[s2art]

jamoor said:

s2art said:

That wasnt the point made. The point was about the pool of candidates. I note that there are plenty of non-EU nationals working in the UK, particularly in the larger multi-national companies. So it cant be that hard.

Sounds to me like only multi nationals can afford the rigmarole of hiring someone from a non EU country?

Not really. There are plenty of commonwealth citizens working on temporary visas outside the big companies. But that isnt the point, we could do whatever we wished with our immigration rules, including allowing unconstrained immigration from many or most European countries. It doesnt need the EU for us to do that.



And see; http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigratio...

[oyster]

s2art said:

jamoor said:

s2art said:

Compared to what though?

Harmonised tariffs? Doesnt Norway and Switzerland get these too?

Potential of harmonised currency? Run that by me again. One size fits all doesnt seem to work very well.

Wider pool of candidates for recruitment? Thats simply a function of immigration control, we can open our doors to good candidates from the whole world if we wish.

Easy cross border travel? When I was a kid, before the UK joined the common market, there seemed to be no difficulty traveling to Europe. Needed a passport then, still need a passport.

Ever tried to employ someone from outside the EU?

No different paperwork required to employ an EU citizen.

That wasnt the point made. The point was about the pool of candidates. I note that there are plenty of non-EU nationals working in the UK, particularly in the larger multi-national companies. So it cant be that hard.

You're being facetious.
It is harder to recruit non-EU nationals. Of course large multi-nationals can do it - they can afford it.
What about medium or small enterprises? Are they not important?

[s2art]

oyster said:

s2art said:

jamoor said:

s2art said:

Compared to what though?

Harmonised tariffs? Doesnt Norway and Switzerland get these too?

Potential of harmonised currency? Run that by me again. One size fits all doesnt seem to work very well.

Wider pool of candidates for recruitment? Thats simply a function of immigration control, we can open our doors to good candidates from the whole world if we wish.

Easy cross border travel? When I was a kid, before the UK joined the common market, there seemed to be no difficulty traveling to Europe. Needed a passport then, still need a passport.

Ever tried to employ someone from outside the EU?

No different paperwork required to employ an EU citizen.

That wasnt the point made. The point was about the pool of candidates. I note that there are plenty of non-EU nationals working in the UK, particularly in the larger multi-national companies. So it cant be that hard.

You're being facetious.
It is harder to recruit non-EU nationals. Of course large multi-nationals can do it - they can afford it.
What about medium or small enterprises? Are they not important?

And you are missing the point again. How difficult it would be to recruit non brits would be completely under our control outside the EU. This discussion is about the advantages/disadvantages of being in the EU. If it was in our interest to simplify, or allow unconstrained immigration from Europe then we could simply amend the immigration regulations to permit this. It does not need the EU to do this. Remember only a decade or two ago, places like Earls Court were swarming with Aussies and Kiwis, often working in bars. And plenty still do.
Anecdotally I know of several non-EU nationals working for medium sized companies, lots of Indians in IT, some Saffers, Yanks, Aussies and Kiwis and one Russian (must ask him about that)

[anonymous-user]

s2art said:

And you are missing the point again. How difficult it would be to recruit non brits would be completely under our control outside the EU. This discussion is about the advantages/disadvantages of being in the EU.

you're absolutely right. it has been done to death and still we get endless strawmen reasons for staying

[jamoor]

s2art said:

And you are missing the point again. How difficult it would be to recruit non brits would be completely under our control outside the EU. This discussion is about the advantages/disadvantages of being in the EU. If it was in our interest to simplify, or allow unconstrained immigration from Europe then we could simply amend the immigration regulations to permit this. It does not need the EU to do this. Remember only a decade or two ago, places like Earls Court were swarming with Aussies and Kiwis, often working in bars. And plenty still do.
Anecdotally I know of several non-EU nationals working for medium sized companies, lots of Indians in IT, some Saffers, Yanks, Aussies and Kiwis and one Russian (must ask him about that)

Do you think a large company based abroad, say Tata or Nissan would rather setup shop in the UK or in a country that's part of the EU?

Oh, also I can go and work anywhere in europe, or even study anywhere in Europe. Just because we will let anyone in doesn't mean they will let us go too.

[anonymous-user]

jamoor said:

Do you think a large company based abroad, say Tata or Nissan would rather setup shop in the UK or in a country that's part of the EU?

which bit of the eu do you think they want? the single market? is ANYONE suggesting we leave the single market?

[jamoor]

fbrs said:

which bit of the eu do you think they want? the single market? is ANYONE suggesting we leave the single market?

Single Market, immigration policy, common standards.

Will we get influence on EU trade tariffs and standards if we aren't part of the EU? (genuine question)

I'm sure someone mentioned that Switzerland has no say in matters even though they are part of the free trade area.

[s2art]

jamoor said:

Do you think a large company based abroad, say Tata or Nissan would rather setup shop in the UK or in a country that's part of the EU?

It would depend on many factors. The UK would probably be a more attractive place to invest than the EU as long as we have a free trade relationship with the EU. And there is no way that Germany would not get a free trade agreement sorted; we are Germany's largest trade partner and they run a huge trade surplus with us.

See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/in...

[s2art]

jamoor said:

fbrs said:

which bit of the eu do you think they want? the single market? is ANYONE suggesting we leave the single market?

Single Market, immigration policy, common standards.

Will we get influence on EU trade tariffs and standards if we aren't part of the EU? (genuine question)

Read this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/9828433/Forget-...

[Strangely Brown]

RSoovy4 said:

They have taken away our right to decide on our own laws.


That in itself is treason by those hwo have allowed it.

This. Above all else, this.

When a government is elected it is handed a mandate from the electorate to run the country for a period of five years. At the end of that period they hand it back to the people, in tact, to be passed to the next election winner. No government has the right to sign that away without asking the people. We are quite capable of making our own laws, thank you.

[einsign]

oyster said:

einsign said:

oyster said:

If I was to reply saying there were no negatives, only benefits - would you say I was constructing a mature, reasoned argument?

Can you list the positives please. As a business owner who manufactures and exports products made in this country I would be keen to know?

- British influence in single market regulations plus greater regulation stability, as less rules will be subject to UK party political changes every 4 years or so.
- Harmonised tariffs
- Potential of harmonised currency
- Wider pool of candidates for recruitment
- Easy cross-border travel.

Now, it may be that those benefits aren't enough for you to be pro-EU. That's ok, nothing wrong with that. But to suggest there are NO benefits whatsoever is rather silly.

So no then, not a single item you have listed helps in my business. Most you listed actually hinder this country.

(just to repeat again, I am a manufacturer who exports British made products, which means I bring money back into this country)

[s2art]

Bedazzled said:

This article provides an interesting assessment of each EU exit scenario, and may provide sobering reading for those who believe we can just cherry-pick the single market benefits. Well worth a read, imo.

Mostly uninformed bks I am afraid. See the Telegraph article describing just how Norway deals with unwanted EU regulation. The economist merely repeats myths about 'fax democracy'.

I liked one comment on the economist article;

'For some reason the author thinks the EU will continue to run around the world signing trade and investment deals with everyone but ignore the world's 21st largest country by population and 5th largest non-EU economy that sits right on its doorstep.'

There is no way on Gods green Earth that Germany will not sort out a free trade arrangement with her largest trade partner, one which Germany has a huge trade surplus with.