What has the EU done to you?

[Kermit power]

Getragdogleg said:

The EU has meant lots of extra regulation for me, regulation that was not needed and has over complicated the job.

There are many more forms to fill in and directives to comply with and it all adds up to make the job harder to do while staying within these boundaries.

It comes down to our national "mentality" we police the rules and check to see if everyone is complying, other EU countries seem to be less interested. Greece for example, I see smoking in bars, mopeds with no helmets and I am sure the working time directive has not been implimented with the vigour seen here.

It is not a nice level playing field when a Polish truck driver can come here and earn lots of money while we all fret about if we did 46 or 47 hours this week and if taking a holiday will put our averages over for the 17 week period.

Get us out, let us be compeitive again, I am sure that even if we had customs and visas again there would be less man hours wasted per year than we waste now filling in forms and making sure we comply.

50 years ago, every Western nation had far less bureaucracy, far less red tape, far less health & safety legislation, far less interference in the workplace in general.

Some of the changes have been good, whilst others have been bad.

My question, however, is what makes you think we wouldn't have created our own National increase in red tape if we hadn't joined the EU?

[AJS-]

Kermit power said:

50 years ago, every Western nation had far less bureaucracy, far less red tape, far less health & safety legislation, far less interference in the workplace in general.

Some of the changes have been good, whilst others have been bad.

My question, however, is what makes you think we wouldn't have created our own National increase in red tape if we hadn't joined the EU?

We undoubtedly would have done. The difference for me is how quickly and effectively it can be rolled back.

mph
So given that we're highly unlikely to be subject to a nuclear attack and have a large influence on the legality or otherwise of foreign wars, who do we want to influence through the UN, to do what? Why? And how will our departure from the EU negatively impact our ability to do so?

[Kermit power]

clarkey540i said:

s2art said:

Currently closer to £10 billion. Cant believe that the direct/indirect benefits of spending our public money elsewhere in the EU are anything like the benefits we would get by spending it here, or reducing our taxes by the equivalent and let us decide how to spend our money.

This website says 10.8 billion in 2008. http://www.democracymovementsurrey.co.uk/dyk_eucos...
It also estimates the net loss at 65 billion a year.
I, too, find it hard to believe that it would not be better spent in the UK. There is a figure in that article about it costing every man, woman and child 1000 quid each a year to be a member of the EU. Considering that the working population is about half of the total population (a rough estimate taking into account retired people, children and the unemployed) it's most likely double that figure, at 2000 quid a year.
So let's say you're on an average salary of 22,000 p/a, putting your tax bill at 2,800 a year excluding national insurance. If we were to leave the EU and all the associated savings were passed onto the taxpayer (I know, it's not going to happen, but it's a good example) then people on an average salary would only pay 800 quid of income tax a year.
In addition, the reduced costs of doing business would bring foreign investment and thus reduce unemployment whilst also improving our global competitiveness

Alternatively, income might go up to £3,800 per year, as UK government sets up local versions of what's currently done by European institutions but without economies of scale.

Also, not being part of the EU might result in losing foreign investment to places inside the EU such as Ireland and the Netherlands where they still all speak English fluently, and have the perceived advantage for outside investors of being in the EU.

The problem is, nobody knows which way it would go, and anyone who claims they would is lying.

[s2art]

Kermit power said:

Alternatively, income might go up to £3,800 per year, as UK government sets up local versions of what's currently done by European institutions but without economies of scale.

Such as? AFAICT there are no such institutions that are not duplicated already within the UK. Just an additional layer of bureaucracy in the EU.

[Getragdogleg]

I feel the fundamental problem I have with the EU is that the centre of power is even further away from me than the one my own country, both physically and in my mental picture of it, I feel like getting an EU directive reversed would be impossible, at least with our lot you might get to see someone and influence change, the EU is vast and faceless.

Also, I find it hard to identify myself as a "european citizen".

[Art0ir]

Kermit power said:

Alternatively, income might go up to £3,800 per year, as UK government sets up local versions of what's currently done by European institutions but without economies of scale.

Given how the EU managed to lose Billions only the other day in Poland, their accounts haven't been signed off for 18 years and the last time auditors went near them they found that controls over 86 per cent of the EU budget was only "partially effective", I'm willing to risk it.

[Ozzie Osmond]

Kermit power said:

My question, however, is what makes you think we wouldn't have created our own National increase in red tape if we hadn't joined the EU?

^^^ Precisely. The UK's output of legislation has been enormous and is still growing.

[s2art]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Kermit power said:

My question, however, is what makes you think we wouldn't have created our own National increase in red tape if we hadn't joined the EU?

^^^ Precisely. The UK's output of legislation has been enormous and is still growing.

Albeit a huge chunk of that is down to EU directives. This is the nub of the problem. Sooner or later a government will actually do something about this, this current government is trying with its 'one in two out' approach to regulations. Probably not enough, but a start. However, regulation by treaty, which is what EU directives fall under, make it almost impossible to repeal such regs without agreement from all other countries in the EU.
So, even though Parliament is sovereign, the ability to set regulation/law is hamstrung by international treaty. The only way out of this democratic deficit and bureaucratic mess is to withdraw from the EU.

[clarkey540i]

Kermit power said:

Alternatively, income might go up to £3,800 per year, as UK government sets up local versions of what's currently done by European institutions but without economies of scale.

Also, not being part of the EU might result in losing foreign investment to places inside the EU such as Ireland and the Netherlands where they still all speak English fluently, and have the perceived advantage for outside investors of being in the EU.

The problem is, nobody knows which way it would go, and anyone who claims they would is lying.

There was a Chinese businessman on Question Time a month or so back, when they were talking about withdrawing from the EU. The show had Paul Nuttall of UKIP and some other politicians, along with the bloke who wrote Trainspotting, for some reason.
They asked the businessman if the UK being part of the EU would affect any investment decisions, and his answer was a categoric no. The Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem politicians then proceeded to tell him that he was wrong and came across as rather thick in the process.

[Kermit power]

Art0ir said:

Kermit power said:

Alternatively, income might go up to £3,800 per year, as UK government sets up local versions of what's currently done by European institutions but without economies of scale.

Given how the EU managed to lose Billions only the other day in Poland, their accounts haven't been signed off for 18 years and the last time auditors went near them they found that controls over 86 per cent of the EU budget was only "partially effective", I'm willing to risk it.

I don't think the EU is perfect - far from it - but I don't have any particular faith in our homegrown rabble either. None of the national politicians seem to stand for anything I agree with any more, so whilst I really don't know whether we'd be better off in or out of the EU at present, I think we'd only be guessing which is the frying pan and which the fire.

Truth be told, I think my real preferred option would be a properly democratically accountable United States of Europe. I'd happily give up National sovereignty (which doesn't really mean much to me anyway) in return for being part of one of the world's superpowers, which a United Europe would be. It would have to be accountable and directly democratic though!

[torqueofthedevil]

Could I go and live in any of the other EU countries, even the likes of France, Spain, Germany, France and be emtitled to exactly the same stuff (and actually get it) as they would in the UK?

I doubt it.

Just look at how difficult people find it to move to even France and get work (even when buying houses not getting council houses and benefits). Other EU countries don't seem to implement EU laws like we do, infect they find it amusing how the UK actually does!

[wheedler]

Well this is the point of the thread I think. Our government being incompetent and just blaming the EU whenever it suits them? Possibly

[rs1952]

There are some points to pick up on here

torqueofthedevil said:

Other EU countries don't seem to implement EU laws like we do, infect they find it amusing how the UK actually does!

Kermit power said:

I don't think the EU is perfect - far from it - but I don't have any particular faith in our homegrown rabble either.

wheedler said:

Well this is the point of the thread I think. Our government being incompetent and just blaming the EU whenever it suits them? Possibly

Where a lot of the anti-EU argument falls on its arse is contained within these quotes. The EU does not force the UK to implement any Directive in any prescribed way - they set the framework and it is down to individual government civil services (in our case Whitehall) to introduce the legislation locally.

Should we ever leave the EU, then we will not find a "new Utopia free from regulation" in front of us. We will find the same Sir Humphrey's that are interpreting EU law now simply having to make a balls-up of interpreting domestic UK regulations instead. The only difference will be that they will no longer be able to pass the buck and say "It's not us, Guv, its the EU innit?"

And if anybody should be misguided emough to think that this will make those in Whitehall accountable then I would suggest you think again. How many civil servants have you heard of that got the bullet for incompetence over the 40 years since we joined the EU?

Kermit power said:

Truth be told, I think my real preferred option would be a properly democratically accountable United States of Europe.

So its not just me that thinks this then

[AJS-]

rs1952 said:

Kermit power said:

Truth be told, I think my real preferred option would be a properly democratically accountable United States of Europe.

So its not just me that thinks this then

Not very appealing to me, nor I would guess many others. But fair enough, argue for it and achieve it by democratic means. Trying to sneak it in while nobody is looking through bureaucracy and manufactured crises is a stupid way to proceed with it, that will only lead to disaster, resentment and division.

[Beati Dogu]

rs1952 said:

Should we ever leave the EU, then we will not find a "new Utopia free from regulation" in front of us. We will find the same Sir Humphrey's that are interpreting EU law now simply having to make a balls-up of interpreting domestic UK regulations instead. The only difference will be that they will no longer be able to pass the buck and say "It's not us, Guv, its the EU innit?"

And if anybody should be misguided emough to think that this will make those in Whitehall accountable then I would suggest you think again. How many civil servants have you heard of that got the bullet for incompetence over the 40 years since we joined the EU?

This is certainly true. As much as I utterly despise the EU and all it stands for, our own empire-building bureaucrats will also need to be dealt with when the time comes. Still, we have to start somewhere and the EU is the root of all evil as far as I'm concerned.