EU referendum - what if the UK votes to stay in?

[Eric Mc]

Mr_B said:

Eric Mc said:

How often should succeeding generations get the chance to overturn decisions made by their parents or grandparents?

What was being voted for back then is massively different to what it has been allowed to run away with and change into. Back then it was, and still is, a rare one off chance to vote on something specific outside of a general election. So if it changes so massively from what the vote was for, then yes, it should then be up for being voted on again by later generations.

There is no right or obligation in the UK (unwritten) constitution that its citizens have the right to partake in referenda - unlike in the Republic of Ireland which has a written constitution and governments can be forced by the people, through the courts if necessary, to hold a referendum even if the government of the day doesn't really want to.

The right to force referenda is a double edged sword.

British governments have the power to GRANT this opportunity to the people of the UK - and they are always pretty reluctant to do this.

[davepoth]

xstian said:

This ^^^^. You have to be pretty naive to think that this EU referendum is any more than a vote gaining exercise. He can't lose. The stupid who vote for the likes of UKIP will change there vote, because the tories have actually got a chance of getting voted in and making the referendum happen. When and if the referendum day comes, the likes of Cameron will be ranting and raving about how great the EU is and how we are getting a great deal. Of course we will probably be shot of the recession by then and being told we could be pushed back into it if we vote out.

This does presuppose that the deal he secures is rubbish. There's still every chance he might get a good settlement - look how quickly he managed to get everyone to (grudgingly, in the case of France) agree to the budget cut. There seems to be a growing consensus among a lot of countries in Europe that maybe we've pushed it a bit too far.

Germany's the key though; if either Merkel or a new Chancellor has to take a more Eurosceptic position in the election this year, and that seems to be the way the German population is looking according to the polls I can find:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-04/most-germ...

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&...

Then it could well be France that ends up being marginalised.

[Globs]

davepoth said:

This does presuppose that the deal he secures is rubbish.

What you mean like having us pay £50m a day to a corrupt organisation intent on removing the power of our vote and ruling us from afar?

[davepoth]

Globs said:

davepoth said:

This does presuppose that the deal he secures is rubbish.

What you mean like having us pay £50m a day to a corrupt organisation intent on removing the power of our vote and ruling us from afar?

Yes, that is rubbish. And if we were to vote on what we have now, I'd probably tell the EU to do one. But the signs are there that other countries are definitely coming round to the idea that "More Europe" isn't the answer.

[rudecherub]

What happens.

Well there ceases to be a UK. Regional policy means there ceases to be an England.

Power moves to the centre, without democracy. a small number of Politicians and global big coporations get richer. EU Law ensures the bankers and the commission are immune from prosecution.

Youth unemployment stays at disaster high levels, as the EU market share of the World economy shrinks, desperate attempts by the EU sees trade barriers to the customns Unions hardened, EU's position as the evil empire in GATT worsens.

CAP reform stops, new members mean the budget rises again as a preportion of the EU - food prices in the EU rise higher still, cost of living for the poor increases further.

Regional conflict explodes, within a generation the whole state collapses into bloody war as ethno religious tensions escalate, with the rotten state of EU targeted especially by Islamo-fascism.

[rs1952]

Globs said:

rs1952 said:

But we had a vote in 1975, and the majority of the population voted to stay in. But apparently that wasn't the end of the matter then, hence where we are now

We didn't have a vote, we were too young.

I had a vote - I was 23 at the time. My views haven't changed since.

[eldar]

Globs said:

What you mean like having us pay £50m a day to a corrupt organisation intent on removing the power of our vote and ruling us from afar?

How much do we gain from being in the EU?

[davepoth]

eldar said:

Globs said:

What you mean like having us pay £50m a day to a corrupt organisation intent on removing the power of our vote and ruling us from afar?

How much do we gain from being in the EU?

We gain Germany not declaring war on France, apparently.

[rs1952]

Eric Mc said:

How often should succeeding generations get the chance to overturn decisions made by their parents or grandparents?

I don't think that's realy relevant because Parliament is doing this all the time by amending and repealing laws passed, essentially, by their parents and grandparents.

But if we are taking specifically about referenda, we had one just lately on changes to the voting system. And we voted to keep the one we had. If you think for one moment that that will be "the end of the matter" then I suggest you are mistaken, because as sure as the sun rises in the morning somebody will raise the issue again in 5, 10 or 20 years time.

You could argue that that's the problem with the whole concept of referenda, that they never really resolve an issue permanently.

Should we vote to stay in the EU, would UKIP disband? Would Europhile tory MPs shut their traps and shrug their shoulders until they drop off their perches? Somehow I doubt it

[Kermit power]

rudecherub said:

What happens.

Well there ceases to be a UK. Regional policy means there ceases to be an England.

In anything other than sentiment, there ceased to be an England 300-odd years ago!

Until such time as we get offered a vote for English independence, I couldn't really care less what we get from a nationality perspective. I don't feel "British", so I'm not bothered at the thought of being "European".

[handpaper]

rs1952 said:

You could argue that that's the problem with the whole concept of referenda, that they never really resolve an issue permanently.

Nothing is ever resolved permanently. Society develops, as does technology. Both affect what is 'right'.
Very few people are ever completely satisfied with all aspects of the status quo.
This is why revolutions happen - and referenda.

[rudecherub]

handpaper said:

rs1952 said:

You could argue that that's the problem with the whole concept of referenda, that they never really resolve an issue permanently.

Nothing is ever resolved permanently. Society develops, as does technology. Both affect what is 'right'.
Very few people are ever completely satisfied with all aspects of the status quo.
This is why revolutions happen - and referenda.

Referenda are part of modern governance, as Switzerland demonstrates, they are desirable and allow a more complete and responsive government.

Gets out Crystal Ball again....

Absolutely, we don't know what the EU might become after it collapses, it might be reinvented as Free Trade Area as opposed to a Customs union, it might have a genuinely democratic governance, and rule of law, with basic freedoms we enjoy through common law.

The USSR collapse - it was in many ways comparable - is still unresolved, with the former states going through a wild west/gangster era. They might evolve into a true democracy as the USA did, or not.

Then an united states of Europe might work, providing the internet has ensured the lingua franca is English.

Of course by then with luck the UK will be entrenched into the Free Trade block based around the English Speaking peoples of the world, with common law and values. After all the Commonwealth is already bigger than than EU, and is growing at a remarkable rate, compared to the equally remarkable contraction of the EU Customs area. Tied into NAFTA this grouping with common law and language will be a truly global reach, having over a quarter of the worlds population, and a necessary counter weight to the power of China and the volatile Caliphate, especially in Africa where the new colonial age poses incredible risks.

[Globs]

rudecherub said:

They might evolve into a true democracy as the USA did, or not.

The United States was deliberately set up by some very clever people as a democracy.
It has evolved out of that and has now entirely bypassed the constitution, finally owned and controlled by the owners of the (unconstitutional) FED.

[davepoth]

Globs said:

rudecherub said:

They might evolve into a true democracy as the USA did, or not.

The United States was deliberately set up by some very clever people as a democracy.
It has evolved out of that and has now entirely bypassed the constitution, finally owned and controlled by the owners of the (unconstitutional) FED.

You are Ron Paul AICMFP.

[Art0ir]

xstian said:

This ^^^^. You have to be pretty naive to think that this EU referendum is any more than a vote gaining exercise. He can't lose. The stupid who vote for the likes of UKIP will change there vote, because the tories have actually got a chance of getting voted in and making the referendum happen. When and if the referendum day comes, the likes of Cameron will be ranting and raving about how great the EU is and how we are getting a great deal. Of course we will probably be shot of the recession by then and being told we could be pushed back into it if we vote out.

[Art0ir]

davepoth said:

But the signs are there that other countries are definitely coming round to the idea that "More Europe" isn't the answer.

I think you're deluding yourself there.

It would be nice to think that they are, but they aren't. Even the Greeks still want to be in for Christ sake with 60% youth unemployment.

The EU is moving one way and one way only. Closer.

[Art0ir]

davepoth said:

Globs said:

rudecherub said:

They might evolve into a true democracy as the USA did, or not.

The United States was deliberately set up by some very clever people as a democracy.
It has evolved out of that and has now entirely bypassed the constitution, finally owned and controlled by the owners of the (unconstitutional) FED.

You are Ron Paul AICMFP.

I'm not sure I agree with his conclusion, but the US is certainly a shadow of what the founding fathers created and what it could have been.

[xstian]

Art0ir said:

xstian said:

This ^^^^. You have to be pretty naive to think that this EU referendum is any more than a vote gaining exercise. He can't lose. The stupid who vote for the likes of UKIP will change there vote, because the tories have actually got a chance of getting voted in and making the referendum happen. When and if the referendum day comes, the likes of Cameron will be ranting and raving about how great the EU is and how we are getting a great deal. Of course we will probably be shot of the recession by then and being told we could be pushed back into it if we vote out.

I'm not too sure why this is so amusing to you?

[anonymous-user]

rs1952 said:

Just a thought that crossed my mind, given that the majority of views around here fall squarely into the anti-EU camp. What if we did have a referendum on continued EU membership and the UK voted to stay in? What would you do then?

Any thoughts?

certainly worth thinking about because you will vote to stay in.

obviously not the first time but you'll get there in the end!

[Getragdogleg]

So Much money will be thrown at the "you must stay in" propaganda that the general public will vote "in"

The sensible anti EU superstate/federal Europe side are not as organised and have not got the funds to throw at the huge task of waking up the slumbering masses.

In short, the beast is too big to bring down and we must witness its overeating and stumbling around for a while longer yet, then when it is in its death throes through excessive consumption we must fight over who gets what part of its empire. WW3 ? could be.