Well Done North Korea. Nuclear weapon test fire.

[The Beaver King]

jmorgan said:

The end result was a saving in lives beyond that of the US. Japan had shown what would happen if the allies, not just the US (they were massing for this) the allies would have taken a big hit. The civilian population were being wound up to defend, and they would have, and they would have died. The Allies would have bombed the place into oblivion, a blockade would have starved to death an already starving nation and disease would have run rampant. The civilians were being primed for basically suicide missions. Kamikazi missions would have seen to a lot of troop ships and other vessels, or at least attempted to.

The predicated toll was massive and that was from people who fought through it, that is saw what happened in the island campaign. This was not a decision just to save lives, it was to end an already bitter war. At that time they were just a couple of big bombs and they had a use and have to be looked at at that moment in time.

That is why this is a different situation and the WWII needs to be left out. The situations are miles apart.

This really needs to be made into another thread; but:

The USA were always going to use nukes in WW2, no matter what the cost. If the US were really focused on saving the lives of troops they could have negotiated Japan's surrender months before dropping the bombs. Japan had already put forward terms of surrender and they were not that unreasonable.
The US baited the Japanese in a bid to prolong the war to provide a justification to use their new weapon (we help build it, but they kept control). It was a showcase to the world.

[moustachebandit]

im said:

Whilst I'm to quick to shout down the US apparently, you're to quick to back a global rampaging bully.

My view is they should be left alone. With the demise of the Soviet Union the world has become an unbalanced place again as all of the power has shifted to just one country and the result of that is that they are doing just exactly as they please and on a global scale. Sadly we're tagging along behind them in our capacity as lackeys and our young men are coming home weekly in body bags from some god-forsaken place or another that the US has deemed worth dying for.

I don't want NK to be the next country they are mown down in.

We're gonna go round in circles here. Lets agree to differ.

I am not pro US, far from it - they have acted very poorly 60 / 70 years since the end of WW2. If there was a war that was worth fighting however it would be to free 23 million people living in what is essentially slavery, or at least helping the region. When the regime does fall, and the true horrors of NK are revealed then at least the world can say they tried to intervene and help.

As mentioned before if NK wasn't continually mentioning how they intend to flatten the South and attack America everyone would just leave them be and turn a blind eye to the human rights issues. America has no interest in the North, and simply just wants them to chill out and stop threatening to punch anyone they dont like no matter how old and long in the tooth the grudge is. On the other foot if NK was shouting about how they wanted to deck the Chinese, I suspect China would also be seeking sanctions, threatening military action etc.

At the end of the day its just a stick waving competition.

NK having nukes is not such a problem if they had a stable government that wasn't lead by some fat tit who wasn't perpetually desperate for a fight with someone. Thing is how long before they hold South Korea to ransom with a nuke - they have form for this sort of thing!

Anyway I am out - this isn't going anywhere.

[Regiment]

The Beaver King said:

This really needs to be made into another thread; but:

The USA were always going to use nukes in WW2, no matter what the cost. If the US were really focused on saving the lives of troops they could have negotiated Japan's surrender months before dropping the bombs. Japan had already put forward terms of surrender and they were not that unreasonable.
The US baited the Japanese in a bid to prolong the war to provide a justification to use their new weapon (we help build it, but they kept control). It was a showcase to the world.

This, the Japanese were looking for terms of peace as long as they got concrete terms that the emperor would be kept in place, something that was explained to the Americans but that one term was rejected or ignored. The Japanese were also terrified of a Soviet invasion as they trusted the Americans far more than the Soviets.

[Mattygooner]

Regiment said:

This, the Japanese were looking for terms of peace as long as they got concrete terms that the emperor would be kept in place, something that was explained to the Americans but that one term was rejected or ignored. The Japanese were also terrified of a Soviet invasion as they trusted the Americans far more than the Soviets.

Interested to see more on this, all i remember was the Potsdam Declaration which outlined the Japanese surrender with the terms being that "We will not deviate from them, there are no alternatives" it also mentioned that faliure would result in "prompt and utter destruction".

The Japanese PM then spoke the the press and "reiterated his government's commitment to ignore the Allies' demands and fight on"
I dont doubt it happened, but would be good to see it if it is out there.

And yes, there was most certainely a large amount of "back off" with the use of thr weapons in light of a strengthening Russia, but the whole point was that it was not destruction for the sake of blowing something up.

Such an interesting part of history.

[The Beaver King]

Mattygooner said:

Interested to see more on this, all i remember was the Potsdam Declaration which outlined the Japanese surrender with the terms being that "We will not deviate from them, there are no alternatives" it also mentioned that faliure would result in "prompt and utter destruction".

The Japanese PM then spoke the the press and "reiterated his government's commitment to ignore the Allies' demands and fight on"
I dont doubt it happened, but would be good to see it if it is out there.

And yes, there was most certainely a large amount of "back off" with the use of thr weapons in light of a strengthening Russia, but the whole point was that it was not destruction for the sake of blowing something up.

Such an interesting part of history.

I think the allies knew that the Japanese would never agree the demands laid out in the Potsdam Declaration. In hindsight, the declaration was very vague. Requests for the elimination "for all time the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest" never specifically mention who, but the Japanese assumed this meant the Emperor, which they would never agree to.

I agree, it wasn't purely a case of using atomic weapons and damn the reasoning. They always need to have reasonable justification, which they did. I just feel it was slightly 'engineered'.

Saying all that though, I do feel it the bombing of Japan has had a massive 'positive' impact on the rest of the world. Please don't read that in the wrong way, what happened was horrific. I do think that the bombing of Japan shocked the world and created a huge fear of nuclear weapons. After witnessing the effects of nukes in a real world situation, I think it scared everybody to the point that using them was the end of the world.

Had the US not used them, I reckon the Cold War could have had a very different outcome. After seeing the damage they caused, the US and Russia knew that their use would be the end and I think that is what stopped anybody pushing the button.

[Hooli]

I was watching The World At War that covered the nuking of Japan last weekend, it covers it rather well. Even 50% of the Japs they interview say dropping the bomb was the right thing to do & it was needed to stop the war early.

[The Beaver King]

Hooli said:

I was watching The World At War that covered the nuking of Japan last weekend, it covers it rather well. Even 50% of the Japs they interview say dropping the bomb was the right thing to do & it was needed to stop the war early.

I remember reading somewhere that the Japanese early into the war were developing nuclear weapons. They showed their research to the Emporer who immediately demanded they discontinue any research as such a weapon was not honourable. It might be rubbish, but I remember reading something similar about the Germans as well. Apparently Hitler refused to openly look into nuclear weapons as it was too dangerous....

[hairykrishna]

The Beaver King said:

Hooli said:

I was watching The World At War that covered the nuking of Japan last weekend, it covers it rather well. Even 50% of the Japs they interview say dropping the bomb was the right thing to do & it was needed to stop the war early.

I remember reading somewhere that the Japanese early into the war were developing nuclear weapons. They showed their research to the Emporer who immediately demanded they discontinue any research as such a weapon was not honourable. It might be rubbish, but I remember reading something similar about the Germans as well. Apparently Hitler refused to openly look into nuclear weapons as it was too dangerous....

I don't know about the Japanese but it's nonsense about the Germans. They were really pushing for them, but they had messed up the critical mass calculation and were under the impression that the amount of fissile material required was impractically large - tons rather than kilos. There were also the well known attacks on heavy water facilities aimed at delaying their nuclear research.

[The Beaver King]

hairykrishna said:

I don't know about the Japanese but it's nonsense about the Germans. They were really pushing for them, but they had messed up the critical mass calculation and were under the impression that the amount of fissile material required was impractically large - tons rather than kilos. There were also the well known attacks on heavy water facilities aimed at delaying their nuclear research.

I've doubled checked since my post and you're right, both are rubbish. Not sure where I got that from...

[Efbe]

MX7 said:

durbster said:

Probably because they're still technically at war with them.

They are at war with the South, not America.

they are technically, but not in reality.

This is something probably not many people know about South Korea. South Koreans hate America and Americans. I mean really hate, with vengeance. There are regular protests outside their military bases* telling the yanks to go home. Koreans hurl abuse at them, and the media is very very one sided against them. The headlines of the tabloids will often be about an American soldier apparently doing something wrong, almost always blown out of proportion.

On the other hand I have met very few South Koreans who did not like the North Koreans. not the country, but the people. They view them as the same as themselves, just with a different government.
I have also heard that the South Korean media is heavily influenced by North Korean politics, this may just be rumour though.

So anyhow point being. Generally speaking the population of the south would not mind a reunification as much as you would think.



* I experienced this first hand: http://www.stripes.com/news/thousands-rally-for-ag... It was a lot less peaceful in reality.

[jmorgan]

The Beaver King said:

This really needs to be made into another thread; but:

The USA were always going to use nukes in WW2, no matter what the cost. If the US were really focused on saving the lives of troops they could have negotiated Japan's surrender months before dropping the bombs. Japan had already put forward terms of surrender and they were not that unreasonable.
The US baited the Japanese in a bid to prolong the war to provide a justification to use their new weapon (we help build it, but they kept control). It was a showcase to the world.

Your right. Needs another thread, Japan refused to surrender, it decided its fate. The terms for Japans surrender (their own version) was not acceptable. They wanted to keep al territories gained and avoid war crimes.


Edit. No baiting BTW. They way Japan fought, they did not need to.

Edited by jmorgan on Friday 15th February 06:44