Well Done North Korea. Nuclear weapon test fire.

[moustachebandit]

MX7 said:

moustachebandit said:

NK could level Seoul within hours.

I don't understand why so many people believe this. The military of South Korea is not insignificant, and they have the backing of the USFK. The NK military may be huge, but I suspect that it's also woefully ill-equipped, and would crumble in the same way that the Iraqi Army did.

If it was a pitchfork fight my money would be on NK.

Despite the size of the Norths standing army, the South and US forces have superiority. The point is that if the North does decide to kick off, by the time South / US supported forces are able to respond in strength a lot of damage could be done to Seoul. The loss of human life would be massive. Thousands of shells and missiles landing on a place so densely populated is going to result in massive collateral damage, and that's if they dont use chemical / biological weapons!

It goes without saying that NK really doesn't stand a chance against the South / US in a prolonged battle. They dont have the equipment, the military is under fed and under fueled. Most supplies come from China so if they close the borders and refuse help then the DPRK will fall on its ass.

Thing is do you go in now and kick ass before they have nukes or leave it a few more years until they have a nuke stockpile and things get even more serious?

[im]

moustachebandit said:

Thing is do you go in now and kick ass before they have nukes or leave it a few more years until they have a nuke stockpile and things get even more serious?

You must be an American.

Here's an idea...why don't we leave it to the Chinese to deal with, they're the local super-power and they're the ones mostly affected by this. They don't seem to be war-mongering over it and yet NK is on their border whilst being '000s of miles from the US, UK and Europe.

Perhaps they value the lives of their military lads a little more than we do and won't be sending them to an early grave in some jungle in the middle of god-knows-where for no good reason.

Since the end of the cold war we are just desperate for someone we can call 'the enemy' and focus our beligerence on.

[MX7]

moustachebandit said:

Despite the size of the Norths standing army, the South and US forces have superiority. The point is that if the North does decide to kick off, by the time South / US supported forces are able to respond in strength a lot of damage could be done to Seoul.

I think we have a different ideas about the length of time an attack would continue. How long were Sarajevo and Grozny under attack? I doubt that Seoul would be under attack for more than a few hours, never mind months. There will obviously be some damage, but I think it's hyperbole to talk about Seoul being flattened.

[MX7]

im said:

You must be an American.

Here's an idea...why don't we leave it to the Chinese to deal with, they're the local super-power and they're the ones mostly affected by this. They don't seem to be war-mongering over it and yet NK is on their border whilst being '000s of miles from the US, UK and Europe.

Perhaps they value the lives of their military lads a little more than we do and won't be sending them to an early grave in some jungle in the middle of god-knows-where for no good reason.

Since the end of the cold war we are just desperate for someone we can call 'the enemy' and focus our beligerence on.

Actually, China seem far from happy about this.

[simoid]

MX7 said:

I think we have a different ideas about the length of time an attack would continue. How long were Sarajevo and Grozny under attack? I doubt that Seoul would be under attack for more than a few hours, never mind months. There will obviously be some damage, but I think it's hyperbole to talk about Seoul being flattened.

South Korea would surely get at least a broken nose from their mental neighbour, before everyone else stepped in and North Korea got shot in the face.

The question is, internationally, how to avoid South Korea getting such a broken nose. Which appears to many to be "let the mental neighbour do what they want."

[MX7]

simoid said:

South Korea would surely get at least a broken nose from their mental neighbour, before everyone else stepped in and North Korea got shot in the face.

Yes, but I think that the response would be remarkably quick. The USFK have been waiting for this for 60 years.

[im]

MX7 said:

im said:

You must be an American.

Here's an idea...why don't we leave it to the Chinese to deal with, they're the local super-power and they're the ones mostly affected by this. They don't seem to be war-mongering over it and yet NK is on their border whilst being '000s of miles from the US, UK and Europe.

Perhaps they value the lives of their military lads a little more than we do and won't be sending them to an early grave in some jungle in the middle of god-knows-where for no good reason.

Since the end of the cold war we are just desperate for someone we can call 'the enemy' and focus our beligerence on.

Actually, China seem far from happy about this.

Agreed, they are unhappy - as any neighbour would be ...but they won't be demonising or attacking them under the pretence that the world is in imminent danger.

You'll notice nobody is threatening Israel or Pakistan both of whom are far more likely to be involved in external military skirmishes than NK is.

[brenflys777]

It might not be as simple as leaving the North Koreans alone and they will just be crazy on their own:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Tunnel_of_Aggre...

I was in Seoul last week and the locals were fantastic, lovely people, booming businesses, low tax/free trade zones in Incheon and the food was the mutts nuts. Just over the border things are quite different apparently and that kind of massive frustration could well lead to some more illogical actions.

[moustachebandit]

im said:

moustachebandit said:

Thing is do you go in now and kick ass before they have nukes or leave it a few more years until they have a nuke stockpile and things get even more serious?

You must be an American.

Here's an idea...why don't we leave it to the Chinese to deal with, they're the local super-power and they're the ones mostly affected by this. They don't seem to be war-mongering over it and yet NK is on their border whilst being '000s of miles from the US, UK and Europe.

Perhaps they value the lives of their military lads a little more than we do and won't be sending them to an early grave in some jungle in the middle of god-knows-where for no good reason.

Since the end of the cold war we are just desperate for someone we can call 'the enemy' and focus our beligerence on.

WTF? Really? And no I am not American.

Genius idea, lets let China resolve the issue ... considering since the formation of the DPRK they have actively supported North Korea politically, financially and logistically. The only reason the DPRK stands today is due to China's support, they are basically propping up the regime. Which suits China fine, they dont want 23 million refugee's on their border, and they also dont want a US supported south Korea taking over the north.

Also lets not forget China's awesome human rights reputation.

I suspect if the DPRK wasn't constantly looking like they were set up for a fight with the South or stating how they will destroy the imperialist Americans, everyone would just leave them alone to get on with it. You also have to ask WTF does America want with the North - the land is bordering on worthless (which is why the country is so poor!)

However we are missing the bigger issue - the horrendous treatment of the NK population. Estimated 200/300,000 in concentration camps, where they are routinely beaten, subjected to torture, used for chemical weapons testing, kept on the edge of famine, executed and worked to death (including children). All without trial or even fair reason. People outside of the camps who aren't part of the "elite" living in abject poverty, famine and fear that they will also be thrown into the camps.

I suppose we should just turn a blind eye to all that suffering? Leave it to China to sort? Should we have done the same with Hitler and suffering of Europe's Jews - France is closer, its their problem?

I appreciate NK has a kitsch image but dont be fooled by how dire the situation is there. Stupidly, if they dropped Juche, demilitarized and opened their doors to the South they would probably turn into the same success story the South has. Of course though that means Kim Jnr and the rest of his buddies need to fall off the face of the earth and that's not going to happen - so the suffering goes on ...

[collateral]

I read this (hosted on a weird site, but the Guardian's original has been taken down) account of a NK camp recently. Pretty horrific

[Carfolio]

jmorgan said:

An indoctrinated nation on a war footing. Wonder what that is worth when the chips are down.

You've just nailed the US in a sentence. How many countries has NK invaded? How many UN resolutions has NK vetoed? How many non-NK people have the NK's equivalent of the CIA assassinated? How many civilians have NK UAVs killed?

[Odie]

Im far more worried about the US starting up nuclear weapon testing again.

http://rt.com/news/us-nuclear-test-nevada-criticis...

Since the US are the ones that have invaded various contries in recent years...

[jmorgan]

Carfolio said:

jmorgan said:

An indoctrinated nation on a war footing. Wonder what that is worth when the chips are down.

You've just nailed the US in a sentence. How many countries has NK invaded? How many UN resolutions has NK vetoed? How many non-NK people have the NK's equivalent of the CIA assassinated? How many civilians have NK UAVs killed?

Different topic and can of worms.

This comment of mine was about NK. They have tried to invade a few times.

[130R]

North Korea is Best Korea

[hairykrishna]

Odie said:

Im far more worried about the US starting up nuclear weapon testing again.

http://rt.com/news/us-nuclear-test-nevada-criticis...

Since the US are the ones that have invaded various contries in recent years...

They've not really 'started up again'. That article is about a sub-critical test. They never actually stopped this type of testing. For countries with decent supercomputer resources, laser implosion facilities and experience building nukes (i.e. us, the US and probably the French) there's not actually much point in going for full blown tests.

[Carfolio]

jmorgan said:

Different topic and can of worms.

This comment of mine was about NK. They have tried to invade a few times.

Not at all. Why should the country with the proven track record of invasions, assassinations, extra-judicial murder, acceptance of "collateral damage" (ie foreseeable civilian deaths), vetoing of UN resolutions and subversion of democratic processes in sovereign countries get to dictate which countries are OK to possess nukes?

[elster]

hairykrishna said:

Odie said:

Im far more worried about the US starting up nuclear weapon testing again.

http://rt.com/news/us-nuclear-test-nevada-criticis...

Since the US are the ones that have invaded various contries in recent years...

They've not really 'started up again'. That article is about a sub-critical test. They never actually stopped this type of testing. For countries with decent supercomputer resources, laser implosion facilities and experience building nukes (i.e. us, the US and probably the French) there's not actually much point in going for full blown tests.

I think the point he is making is that maybe it is more dangerous that Team America carry on being World Police if the next President fancies going 'Nuclear on their ass', due to the fact they have been the ones invading more countries than others.

[IroningMan]

Carfolio said:

jmorgan said:

Different topic and can of worms.

This comment of mine was about NK. They have tried to invade a few times.

Not at all. Why should the country with the proven track record of invasions, assassinations, extra-judicial murder, acceptance of "collateral damage" (ie foreseeable civilian deaths), vetoing of UN resolutions and subversion of democratic processes in sovereign countries get to dictate which countries are OK to possess nukes?

Very good.

Now what should we do about NK?

[Carfolio]

IroningMan said:

Very good.

Now what should we do about NK?

Nothing. What should we do about France? Portugal? Andorra?

[im]

moustachebandit said:

im said:

moustachebandit said:

Thing is do you go in now and kick ass before they have nukes or leave it a few more years until they have a nuke stockpile and things get even more serious?

You must be an American.

Here's an idea...why don't we leave it to the Chinese to deal with, they're the local super-power and they're the ones mostly affected by this. They don't seem to be war-mongering over it and yet NK is on their border whilst being '000s of miles from the US, UK and Europe.

Perhaps they value the lives of their military lads a little more than we do and won't be sending them to an early grave in some jungle in the middle of god-knows-where for no good reason.

Since the end of the cold war we are just desperate for someone we can call 'the enemy' and focus our beligerence on.

WTF? Really? And no I am not American.

Genius idea, lets let China resolve the issue ... considering since the formation of the DPRK they have actively supported North Korea politically, financially and logistically. The only reason the DPRK stands today is due to China's support, they are basically propping up the regime. Which suits China fine, they dont want 23 million refugee's on their border, and they also dont want a US supported south Korea taking over the north.

Also lets not forget China's awesome human rights reputation.

I suspect if the DPRK wasn't constantly looking like they were set up for a fight with the South or stating how they will destroy the imperialist Americans, everyone would just leave them alone to get on with it. You also have to ask WTF does America want with the North - the land is bordering on worthless (which is why the country is so poor!)

However we are missing the bigger issue - the horrendous treatment of the NK population. Estimated 200/300,000 in concentration camps, where they are routinely beaten, subjected to torture, used for chemical weapons testing, kept on the edge of famine, executed and worked to death (including children). All without trial or even fair reason. People outside of the camps who aren't part of the "elite" living in abject poverty, famine and fear that they will also be thrown into the camps.

I suppose we should just turn a blind eye to all that suffering? Leave it to China to sort? Should we have done the same with Hitler and suffering of Europe's Jews - France is closer, its their problem?

I appreciate NK has a kitsch image but dont be fooled by how dire the situation is there. Stupidly, if they dropped Juche, demilitarized and opened their doors to the South they would probably turn into the same success story the South has. Of course though that means Kim Jnr and the rest of his buddies need to fall off the face of the earth and that's not going to happen - so the suffering goes on ...

Great! So lets invade EVERY country where we don't like the regime...no matter how irrelevent they are to the UK.

Like the Muslims the Communists don't see the world in the same terms that you do but hey - lets impose our belief system on them regardless. Cos thats working out really well in Afghanistan, Iran etc etc.

Like I said, if it were really as bad as you make out, and short of actually going there (as we'll never know cos the only news we ever get is from western media) the people would eventually revolt regardless of the military power behind the throne, a la Syria, Egypt etc.

Got a linky thats actually from an independent source for the "Estimated 200/300,000 in concentration camps, where they are routinely beaten, subjected to torture, used for chemical weapons testing, kept on the edge of famine, executed and worked to death (including children). All without trial or even fair reason."?

Sounds horrific, if actually true.