Well Done North Korea. Nuclear weapon test fire.

[Halmyre]

brenflys777 said:

It might not be as simple as leaving the North Koreans alone and they will just be crazy on their own:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Tunnel_of_Aggre...

I was in Seoul last week and the locals were fantastic, lovely people, booming businesses, low tax/free trade zones in Incheon and the food was the mutts nuts.

You might want to rephrase that...

[Sonic]

collateral said:

I read this (hosted on a weird site, but the Guardian's original has been taken down) account of a NK camp recently. Pretty horrific

Jesus, that's pretty horrific stuff.

[Frik]

im said:

Got a linky thats actually from an independent source for the "Estimated 200/300,000 in concentration camps, where they are routinely beaten, subjected to torture, used for chemical weapons testing, kept on the edge of famine, executed and worked to death (including children). All without trial or even fair reason."?

Sounds horrific, if actually true.

Yes, this one:

collateral said:

I read this (hosted on a weird site, but the Guardian's original has been taken down) account of a NK camp recently. Pretty horrific

Abhorrent.

[IroningMan]

Carfolio said:

IroningMan said:

Very good.

Now what should we do about NK?

Nothing. What should we do about France? Portugal? Andorra?

So no pressure to improve the conditions in which the population is made to live? Just let them get on with it? After all, they are no threat to us?

[jmorgan]

Carfolio said:

jmorgan said:

Different topic and can of worms.

This comment of mine was about NK. They have tried to invade a few times.

Not at all. Why should the country with the proven track record of invasions, assassinations, extra-judicial murder, acceptance of "collateral damage" (ie foreseeable civilian deaths), vetoing of UN resolutions and subversion of democratic processes in sovereign countries get to dictate which countries are OK to possess nukes?

Yes they are. Oh no they are not.....

The US is a different topic, if you must, start a new one. This was started about NK.

First up I am not going to defend or attack the US here. NK has a track record as well, you can be selective here but NK are really not the wronged hand wringers here that some would have.

NK has shown intent for attempted naughty stuff a few times since the end of the Korean War (if that was not enough). In numerous verbally diarrhoea filled speeches and press releases, the head nutter (plural really) of NK has over the years repeated the need for re unification. They have dug invasion tunnels, and shown intent to get the South. This is their goal. They do not want a democratic end, they want control on their terms. It is an unstable dictatorship. The nation is brain washed that the west are baby eaters and all that crap. In that sense that is a military weapon and advantage as well.

It is not just the US that are worried about this nation. If the US were not in S Korea, NK would probably have rolled the tanks by now. What the end game is, anyone can guess. So what do we do? Let them get on with it? They are probably in cahoots with Iran, another unstable nation with the need for a nuke. Interfere? Probably not going to happen, you cannot bomb them back into the dark ages, they are already there. Invade and you have to invest in that nations to bring it up to a sensible standard of living. I think the US will only want to send in bags of grain not troops.

So, what to do about NK?

[im]

jmorgan said:

First up I am not going to defend or attack the US here. NK has a track record as well, you can be selective here but NK are really not the wronged hand wringers here that some would have.

Sorry but haven't the Americans already been to war with them once (by proxy), in their own country? Now they want some insurance against a repeat. As long as they don't lob nukes about all over SE Asia whats it got to do with us?

[IroningMan]

im said:

jmorgan said:

First up I am not going to defend or attack the US here. NK has a track record as well, you can be selective here but NK are really not the wronged hand wringers here that some would have.

Sorry but haven't the Americans already been to war with them once (by proxy), in their own country? Now they want some insurance against a repeat. As long as they don't lob nukes about all over SE Asia whats it got to do with us?

You need to re-read your Korean War history.

[elster]

Frik said:

im said:

Got a linky thats actually from an independent source for the "Estimated 200/300,000 in concentration camps, where they are routinely beaten, subjected to torture, used for chemical weapons testing, kept on the edge of famine, executed and worked to death (including children). All without trial or even fair reason."?

Sounds horrific, if actually true.

Yes, this one:

collateral said:

I read this (hosted on a weird site, but the Guardian's original has been taken down) account of a NK camp recently. Pretty horrific

Abhorrent.

Wasn't that shown to have no truth, hence why others removed it from their sites.

[Carfolio]

jmorgan said:

The US is a different topic, if you must, start a new one. This was started about NK.

First up I am not going to defend or attack the US here. NK has a track record as well, you can be selective here but NK are really not the wronged hand wringers here that some would have.

You can't ignore the fact that the US is the country that has vetoed most UN resolutions; that the US has a long history of invading sovereign countries and extra-judicial murders when you speak about a brain-washed country on the warpath. This is what you mentioned, and it remains more aptly applied to the US than NK.

Again, why should we, or you, or me - do anything at all about NK? They are not signatories to any non-proliferation treaties, they are not even members of the UN.

I am not interested in defending NK, by the way, but it's crazy the double standards that people happily espouse.

[simoid]

Carfolio said:

Again, why should we, or you, or me - do anything at all about NK?

If there's an apparent danger to our international allies?

[Carfolio]

simoid said:

If there's an apparent danger to our international allies?

Again, it's the US setting the moral compass here. The track history clearly shows that the US is the aggressor, not isolated states that they happen to dislike. See Congo, Grenada, Cuba, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and now NK again.

[simoid]

Carfolio said:

simoid said:

If there's an apparent danger to our international allies?

Again, it's the US setting the moral compass here. The track history clearly shows that the US is the aggressor, not isolated states that they happen to dislike. See Congo, Grenada, Cuba, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and now NK again.

Don't you think NK is being aggressive in this case?

[Frik]

elster said:

Wasn't that shown to have no truth, hence why others removed it from their sites.

I can't find any evidence that it isn't.

[moustachebandit]

im said:

moustachebandit said:

im said:

moustachebandit said:

Thing is do you go in now and kick ass before they have nukes or leave it a few more years until they have a nuke stockpile and things get even more serious?

You must be an American.

Here's an idea...why don't we leave it to the Chinese to deal with, they're the local super-power and they're the ones mostly affected by this. They don't seem to be war-mongering over it and yet NK is on their border whilst being '000s of miles from the US, UK and Europe.

Perhaps they value the lives of their military lads a little more than we do and won't be sending them to an early grave in some jungle in the middle of god-knows-where for no good reason.

Since the end of the cold war we are just desperate for someone we can call 'the enemy' and focus our beligerence on.

WTF? Really? And no I am not American.

Genius idea, lets let China resolve the issue ... considering since the formation of the DPRK they have actively supported North Korea politically, financially and logistically. The only reason the DPRK stands today is due to China's support, they are basically propping up the regime. Which suits China fine, they dont want 23 million refugee's on their border, and they also dont want a US supported south Korea taking over the north.

Also lets not forget China's awesome human rights reputation.

I suspect if the DPRK wasn't constantly looking like they were set up for a fight with the South or stating how they will destroy the imperialist Americans, everyone would just leave them alone to get on with it. You also have to ask WTF does America want with the North - the land is bordering on worthless (which is why the country is so poor!)

However we are missing the bigger issue - the horrendous treatment of the NK population. Estimated 200/300,000 in concentration camps, where they are routinely beaten, subjected to torture, used for chemical weapons testing, kept on the edge of famine, executed and worked to death (including children). All without trial or even fair reason. People outside of the camps who aren't part of the "elite" living in abject poverty, famine and fear that they will also be thrown into the camps.

I suppose we should just turn a blind eye to all that suffering? Leave it to China to sort? Should we have done the same with Hitler and suffering of Europe's Jews - France is closer, its their problem?

I appreciate NK has a kitsch image but dont be fooled by how dire the situation is there. Stupidly, if they dropped Juche, demilitarized and opened their doors to the South they would probably turn into the same success story the South has. Of course though that means Kim Jnr and the rest of his buddies need to fall off the face of the earth and that's not going to happen - so the suffering goes on ...

Great! So lets invade EVERY country where we don't like the regime...no matter how irrelevent they are to the UK.

Like the Muslims the Communists don't see the world in the same terms that you do but hey - lets impose our belief system on them regardless. Cos thats working out really well in Afghanistan, Iran etc etc.

Like I said, if it were really as bad as you make out, and short of actually going there (as we'll never know cos the only news we ever get is from western media) the people would eventually revolt regardless of the military power behind the throne, a la Syria, Egypt etc.

Got a linky thats actually from an independent source for the "Estimated 200/300,000 in concentration camps, where they are routinely beaten, subjected to torture, used for chemical weapons testing, kept on the edge of famine, executed and worked to death (including children). All without trial or even fair reason."?

Sounds horrific, if actually true.

I cant be bothered to argue, if you are incapable of spending 15 mins on Google actually researching the situation in NK then you wont accept any source or argument I present.

Whilst you're so quick to discount "western media" reports about the country the majority of the information we know and understand about the country, the camps, the famine, the brutality has come from people who have been lucky enough to flee the country, survived the famines, the torture and escaped camps - not exactly biased. They tell it how it is, rather than put a political spin on it for western media.

You will also understand why the people just dont rise up. The live under constant surveillance, starved, in poverty and endlessly indoctrinated. The other thing to remember is that 1 family members actions is enough to sentence the whole family to the camps or execution, so people just do as they are told for the sake of their own skin and the ones they love - publicly complaining bout the lack of food is enough to be sentenced to a camp, so how likley do you think it is that a few peasants are going to rise up against a standing army of 1 million?!

[Carfolio]

simoid said:

Don't you think NK is being aggressive in this case?

Certainly. They are not threatening to invade though, are they? They are reacting to the US' treatment of other regimes - whether you or I consider them good or bad is irrelevant - with extreme and weakly-justified violence.

[collateral]

elster said:

Frik said:

im said:

Got a linky thats actually from an independent source for the "Estimated 200/300,000 in concentration camps, where they are routinely beaten, subjected to torture, used for chemical weapons testing, kept on the edge of famine, executed and worked to death (including children). All without trial or even fair reason."?

Sounds horrific, if actually true.

Yes, this one:

collateral said:

I read this (hosted on a weird site, but the Guardian's original has been taken down) account of a NK camp recently. Pretty horrific

Abhorrent.

Wasn't that shown to have no truth, hence why others removed it from their sites.

News to me.

Guardian said:

This content has been removed as our copyright has expired

[simoid]

Carfolio said:

Certainly. They are not threatening to invade though, are they?

I don't know.

Do you?

[jmorgan]

Carfolio said:

jmorgan said:

The US is a different topic, if you must, start a new one. This was started about NK.

First up I am not going to defend or attack the US here. NK has a track record as well, you can be selective here but NK are really not the wronged hand wringers here that some would have.

You can't ignore the fact that the US is the country that has vetoed most UN resolutions; that the US has a long history of invading sovereign countries and extra-judicial murders when you speak about a brain-washed country on the warpath. This is what you mentioned, and it remains more aptly applied to the US than NK.

Again, why should we, or you, or me - do anything at all about NK? They are not signatories to any non-proliferation treaties, they are not even members of the UN.

I am not interested in defending NK, by the way, but it's crazy the double standards that people happily espouse.

Never really bothered with who vetod who. You have the US in your sights here? Quick google says USSR is top trumps for a veto but then the internet is always right.

I should add that in the invasion stakes, the UK probably outdoes many countries including the US, and that the US history of invasion is probably very short and a few countries. Does not make it right though. Should NK be free to crack on?

[Steameh]

Carfolio said:

Again, it's the US setting the moral compass here. The track history clearly shows that the US is the aggressor, not isolated states that they happen to dislike. See Congo, Grenada, Cuba, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and now NK again.

By moral compass you mean direct threats at the USA? In which case, I would say they are well within their rights to react.

[elster]

collateral said:

elster said:

Frik said:

im said:

Got a linky thats actually from an independent source for the "Estimated 200/300,000 in concentration camps, where they are routinely beaten, subjected to torture, used for chemical weapons testing, kept on the edge of famine, executed and worked to death (including children). All without trial or even fair reason."?

Sounds horrific, if actually true.

Yes, this one:

collateral said:

I read this (hosted on a weird site, but the Guardian's original has been taken down) account of a NK camp recently. Pretty horrific

Abhorrent.

Wasn't that shown to have no truth, hence why others removed it from their sites.

News to me.

Guardian said:

This content has been removed as our copyright has expired

Apologies, must have been something else North Korean based.