Well Done North Korea. Nuclear weapon test fire.

[brenflys777]

Halmyre said:

brenflys777 said:

It might not be as simple as leaving the North Koreans alone and they will just be crazy on their own:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Tunnel_of_Aggre...

I was in Seoul last week and the locals were fantastic, lovely people, booming businesses, low tax/free trade zones in Incheon and the food was the mutts nuts.

You might want to rephrase that...

No... I think thats exactly what I meant

[yahtzee]

Us says it will take 'significant action' against NK. ... Bluster again..

[Steameh]

Carfolio said:

Certainly. They are not threatening to invade though, are they? They are reacting to the US' treatment of other regimes - whether you or I consider them good or bad is irrelevant - with extreme and weakly-justified violence.

From not so long ago, taken from the AFP;

Pyongyang reacted furiously, vowing to boost its nuclear arsenal and to conduct a third nuclear test and even longer-range rocket launches in an "all-out action" against its "sworn US enemy".

[Carfolio]

Steameh said:

From not so long ago, taken from the AFP;

Pyongyang reacted furiously, vowing to boost its nuclear arsenal and to conduct a third nuclear test and even longer-range rocket launches in an "all-out action" against its "sworn US enemy".

Again, versus actual violence and destruction the US uses often, at will.

[MX7]

You hate the US. We get it.

[im]

IroningMan said:

im said:

jmorgan said:

First up I am not going to defend or attack the US here. NK has a track record as well, you can be selective here but NK are really not the wronged hand wringers here that some would have.

Sorry but haven't the Americans already been to war with them once (by proxy), in their own country? Now they want some insurance against a repeat. As long as they don't lob nukes about all over SE Asia whats it got to do with us?

You need to re-read your Korean War history.

Which bit? 33,000+ US servicemen lost their lives in combat in the Korean war. Whats your point?

[IroningMan]

im said:

Which bit? 33,000+ US servicemen lost their lives in combat in the Korean war. Whats your point?

Your post implies that the US were the aggressor in the Korean War - when in fact it was an all-out invasion of the South by a North that was backed by Soviet and Chinese materiel and expertise.

[Oakey]

Frik said:

Abhorrent.

There's another more detailed account of a woman who escaped North Korea, she was an NK politician, I can't find the damned link now or her name.

ETA: here it is: http://www.judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/testimony...

Edited by Oakey on Tuesday 12th February 17:34

[im]

IroningMan said:

im said:

Which bit? 33,000+ US servicemen lost their lives in combat in the Korean war. Whats your point?

Your post implies that the US were the aggressor in the Korean War - when in fact it was an all-out invasion of the South by a North that was backed by Soviet and Chinese materiel and expertise.

No. My post implies that the US again waged a war in a foreign country against half the population of that said country in defence of a despotic regime in the south.

The research of the start of the Korean war suggests another viewpoint is possible:

---

Syngman Rhee's government in Seoul was extremely unpopular and insecure, able to rule only by imposing upon South Korea "a cloud of terror that is probably unparalleled in the world," according to a New York Times reporter on March 6, 1950. Despite the terror, Rhee's party was dealt a disastrous defeat in the parliamentary election held four weeks before the war broke out. Rhee thus had a plausible motivation to start the war so as to create a totally new ball game.

Rhee had several times announced his ambition to "regain" North Korea, boasting in January 1950, for example, that "in the new year we shall strive as one man to regain the lost territory."

Rhee received encouragement from certain U.S. high officials, such as John Foster Dulles, who said in Seoul six days before the war broke out, "You are not alone. You will never be alone so long as you continue to play worthily your part in the great design of human freedom."

There had been a long pattern of South Korean incursion into North Korea. The official U.S. Army history of the American Military Advisory Group in Korea, referring to the more than 400 engagements that had taken place along the 38th parallel in the second half of 1949, reports that "some of the bloodiest engagements were caused by South Korean units securing and preparing defensive positions that were either astride or north of the 38th parallel. This provoked violent actions y North Korean actions."

The two captured North Korean documents which allegedly prove that the North had started the war exist only in English, supposedly translated from the Korean original. Ostensibly titled "Reconnaissance Order No. 1" and "Operation Order No. 1," the original were never made public, nor have they subsequently ever been found.

---

There are always 2 sides to every story and the above points highlights that...but...the bottom line is the US intervened in a civil war - some would say in order to try and halt the spread of communism whilst creating a bridghead to Russia and China during the cold war.

Sorry but I don't go with the US being the innocent party in Korea and can well understand the N.Koreans hatred of the US after all, what does History teach us about the Americans involvement in wars around the globe?

[hairykrishna]

Carfolio said:

You can't ignore the fact that the US is the country that has vetoed most UN resolutions; that the US has a long history of invading sovereign countries and extra-judicial murders when you speak about a brain-washed country on the warpath. This is what you mentioned, and it remains more aptly applied to the US than NK.

Again, why should we, or you, or me - do anything at all about NK? They are not signatories to any non-proliferation treaties, they are not even members of the UN.

I am not interested in defending NK, by the way, but it's crazy the double standards that people happily espouse.

Double standards? When the US starts stuffing hundreds of thousands of people into concentration camps for criticizing the government or cuts it's population off from the rest of the world on pain of death then you might have a point.

The US isn't perfect and it likes to throw it's weight around but implying that the two are somehow equivalent is plain stupid.

[MX7]

Carfolio said:

Again, why should we, or you, or me - do anything at all about NK? They are not signatories to any non-proliferation treaties, they are not even members of the UN.

Just seen this. North Korea are members of the UN.

Do you really know what you're talking about?

https://www.un.org/en/members/#d

[jmorgan]

To the tune of a Saturdays footy fans chant
here we go here we go here we go, here we gooooooo



Edit, I know the news link is highly reliable......

[moustachebandit]

North Korea do take offense at literally anything dont they.

Looks like they already have a nuke ready to launch!

[Dr Doofenshmirtz]

elster said:

Frik said:

im said:

Got a linky thats actually from an independent source for the "Estimated 200/300,000 in concentration camps, where they are routinely beaten, subjected to torture, used for chemical weapons testing, kept on the edge of famine, executed and worked to death (including children). All without trial or even fair reason."?

Sounds horrific, if actually true.

Yes, this one:

collateral said:

I read this (hosted on a weird site, but the Guardian's original has been taken down) account of a NK camp recently. Pretty horrific

Abhorrent.

Wasn't that shown to have no truth, hence why others removed it from their sites.

Reads like typical propaganda to me.

[Mojocvh]

Frik said:

im said:

Got a linky thats actually from an independent source for the "Estimated 200/300,000 in concentration camps, where they are routinely beaten, subjected to torture, used for chemical weapons testing, kept on the edge of famine, executed and worked to death (including children). All without trial or even fair reason."?

Sounds horrific, if actually true.

Yes, this one:

collateral said:

I read this (hosted on a weird site, but the Guardian's original has been taken down) account of a NK camp recently. Pretty horrific

Abhorrent.

That will be the "never mind feeding them, they'll just eat themselves" policy..

[Mojocvh]

You guys can have your pissing matches, fine, but, the effect of nerve agents on a civilian population doesn't bear thinking about.

Even to the best equipped military [actually the uk's at the time] you were talking of 20% casualties minimum.

Now throw in a untrained and undisciplined civil population then the effectiveness of any protective equipment is severely curtailed.

Those on here who have been there will agree.

Ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_warfare

Example.

"The Novichok (Russian for "newcomer") agents are a series of organophosphate compounds that were developed in the Soviet Union from the mid 1960s to the 1990s. The goal of this program was to develop and manufacture highly deadly chemical weapons that were unknown to the West. These new agents were designed to be undetectable by standard NATO chemical detection equipment and to defeat chemical protective gear."


Ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerve_agent

Edited by Mojocvh on Wednesday 13th February 21:47

[MX7]

jmorgan said:

To the tune of a Saturdays footy fans chant
here we go here we go here we go, here we gooooooo



Edit, I know the news link is highly reliable......

It appears that North Korea have decided to adopt the current internet trend of blaming the US for everything, which is a strange stance to take given that the US has given North Korea $1.3 billion in aid since 1995.

I really don't understand their focus on the US. When they launched the satellite in December a whole bunch of countries expressed concern, and again with this test. They seem slightly obsessed with the US really, which might have worked if China had remained static, but given the caliber and diplomatic quality of the guy they had on Newsnight(?) a month or two ago, it's clear that China have a very different perception of the world to NK, and all that will happen is that they will be left in complete isolation.

So much for hoping that Kim Jong-un might join the modern world. Fat useless fk.

[jmorgan]

MX7 said:

jmorgan said:

To the tune of a Saturdays footy fans chant
here we go here we go here we go, here we gooooooo



Edit, I know the news link is highly reliable......

It appears that North Korea have decided to adopt the current internet trend of blaming the US for everything, which is a strange stance to take given that the US has given North Korea $1.3 billion in aid since 1995.

I really don't understand their focus on the US. When they launched the satellite in December a whole bunch of countries expressed concern, and again with this test. They seem slightly obsessed with the US really, which might have worked if China had remained static, but given the caliber and diplomatic quality of the guy they had on Newsnight(?) a month or two ago, it's clear that China have a very different perception of the world to NK, and all that will happen is that they will be left in complete isolation.

So much for hoping that Kim Jong-un might join the modern world. Fat useless fk.

I have been dipping into that NK news for a few years now. It is interesting and it is sad. For example the last dictator was at some factory or another imparting his expertise in how to build tractors or grow mushrooms, all of which will lead to the countries survival against the wishes of the west belligerence led by the USA blah blah blah. Look up the Juche belief, idea, ideology (?). They lambast the USA with glee. I expect the nation are indoctrinated this way as well. The trophies they display to this end show it.

There is a group of NK Juche Idea lovers in the UK..... seriously. Probably a small group though.

The other stories that are obvious over time are the re unification ones. They have this following in many countries, although I suspect they are small in number, and use these as some sort of crutch saying they support re unification. They pick up on any support for this from any quarter. They want S Korea in a bad way and the US is in the way, I suspect they would have gone for it before now if the US were not there. The invasion tunnels are a big clue as to the intentions. They do not want a free and fair elected unified Korea, and I suspect that South Korea do not want the North in the state it is in now though lip service is paid to re unification.

You also have the old guard, they were not about to give up power and the trappings. How much could they be swayed by the young whipper snapper or how much influence do they have over the yoof.

I would imagine that Iran has been there prodding the new dictator in the right way. They are rabid anti US (maybe for a good reason but.....). Nuke tests, do not like the Americans, we have a rocket, you have a bomb....... Might Iran promise a new donkey (not used) for a few mutterings in the glorious leaders ears? How much of a back bone does Kim the younger have when this sort of pressure is applied, "leave the press releases to us" says an old general? Who knows.

But then again I might be talking cobblers.

[im]

MX7 said:

It appears that North Korea have decided to adopt the current internet trend of blaming the US for everything...

So before the birth of the Internet the North did in fact love the US then?

I suspect you have that argument arse-about-face

In 1950 (in the absence of a dissenting voice from the Soviet Union who could have vetoed it) the United States and other countries (UK, Taiwan, pre-castro Cuba, Ecuador, France & Norway) passed a Security Council resolution authorizing military intervention in Korea. Guess which country was in command of the Forces to be sent to Korea?

Yes NK have an issue with the US - it's in their psyche - they see the US as the bully leading its minnions (the West) against them and lets be honest how many spies will the west be operating in NK as opposed to their spies in the west.

I'm baffled that we can't just leave these independent countries alone to get on with things and help when it becomes obvious that the vast majority of their citizens want change which, at this point, they clearly don't. The Arab uprising has shown that eventually all of these despots will fall but we fall into the trap of insisting they fall now.

Except where the despots are our friends of course

[Mattygooner]

History is there to be learned from, the idea that a country such as NK have WMD (Nukes, Chemical, Nerve) and are clearly not afraid to use them is scary indeed.

History has taught us that allowing crazed power hungry people in a Dictatorship enviroment with a large army and a grudge can be very dangerous. But i would say that right now is not the time for a military intervention, it is just posturing.

But, we do need to keep a very close eye on the situation as it could get out of hand very quickly.

Comparing the Arab Spring uprisings with NK is silly, NK is on a whole new level of control of their population, i can't see an uprising ever happening, they are simply brain washed above and beyond the religious nut jobs.