Car thief brothers killed in car crash

[Smiler.]

I for one am SICK of the injustices doled out in the UK today, to those who:


Keep their nose clean
Play by the rules (civil & legal)
Perform a fair day's work for the agreed recompense
Expect to get the advertised value from from the stuff they purchase
Expect to get the advertised value form services they purchase


If two thieving fkwits go out in a blaze of glory, one can only be grateful that they didn't take anyone innocent with them.

No tears here.


Still, in the grand scheme of things, I'm not being shot at, bombed & I'm not starving or thirsty, so my experience of injustice is all relative.

I'd do well to remember that more often I s'pose.

[Koofler]

MocMocaMoc said:

Koofler said:

So, do we think that these 'unfortunate' brothers would have acted any differently to this (presumably) unfortunate driver?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21447212

MocMocaMoc, if you can tear yourself away from the waves, I'd genuinely like to know what your thoughts are on a suitable punishment in this case, for the driver?

Holy f*ck!

With regards to punishment... I've no idea.

If I were even witness to the accident, and able to apprehend the driver... my knuckles wouldn't stand up to the endurance.

fk it... life? 20 years? Then either genuine reform or another 20?

As regular cyclist I've seen plenty of reckless driving. I've lost a cousin to a hit and run whilst he was out on his bike. In all honesty I'd like to see people who endanger lives, in any way at all, just vanish off the face of the earth...

But would I clap my hands to hear they'd burned to death? No. Maybe as a teenager I might have...

But the best you'll get from me, re; the original post, is indifference. I don't see any other reasonable reaction to whole awful affair - the two fellas, clearly mentally deficient, and generally pointless human beings ('unfortunate' was a laid back description, apologies) clearly needed attention from the law... i.e. locked up, or the fear of God put into them (how this is done, I don't know... )

But that wasn't my point - everybody here seems to think I sympathise with these two characters... I don't, although I do feel sorry for them, if that can be different... I feel sorry that they weren't better people, that they couldn't live happier, honest lives with their friends and family, that they didn't see the value in earning their way, buying what they wanted, rather than stealing, or had better ambitions other than being a total menace to society.

But to derive glee from the news that two people, regardless of the circumstances, had burned to death? If I did, I'd have serious concerns about my own character.

As it happens, I now have serious concerns for a number of characters on here. I feel sympathy for any person who meets their end in such a painful manner. But that's not to say I'll miss them.

Unfortunately, the justice system we have now due to the hand wringers and the likes of Cherie Blair mean that miscreants like these get away time and again, leaving a trail of victims in their wake. So, naturally, people feel disempowered and angry. So when something like this happens, I'd argue that to not give a toss that they spent their final moments in a ball flames is actually quite cathartic. Some justice has finally been done. Or at least feels like it.

Would I be able to set light to them if they were caught red handed by a mob and doused in petrol. Probably not.

Does that mean that if through their own actions they ended up with ultimately the same fate, I'll shed a tear? No. I might even think "good". I'll not feel guilty for thinking that either. Or an ounce of sympathy for them.

Does that make ME a bad person. Nope. People make their own decisions and these two knew they were doing wrong yet chose it as a lifestyle. One can only guess why. Perhaps they thought it made them cool. (No pun intended)

The kicker here is that, from what I have read, they weren't being chased at the time of the crash having already given the local BIB the slip. Epic fail is an epic fail.

[LostBMW]

MocMocaMoc said:

LostBMW said:

We're better off without such vermin.

Fair point.

But I get squeamish killing flies... people who kill even spiders make me sad. I ran over a mouse once and it stayed with me (the guilt, not the ghost of the mouse or anything) all day. Inflicting death in any case just doesn't sit well with me. And as I've said, taking pleasure from the news of someone's demise smacks of a frightening personality type.

Doesn't mean I don't want the fly, or the spider, or the UNFORTUNATE human beings to just f*ck off away from me, though.

I must seem like a weird contradiction but I'm one of those simpering vegetarian types we hear about(!) yet would happily kill off - or have killed off, easier for me and less 'messy' - no end of the chaff we have to share the world with. Probably am a 'frightening personality' type but if it's any consolation it doesn't make me happy, or calm.

As my wife said, being so full of anger and hate can't make for a nice life. She's right but it brings one mental freedom - being able to truly hate (as I feel some of the more liberal types here probably can't) means you don't have the emotional or moral shackles that limit attitudes to transgressors. For me, I can't see the point in being able to hate someone unless it also means you can freely wish them ill?

[Murph7355]

MocMocaMoc said:

...
Doesn't mean I don't want the fly, or the spider, or the UNFORTUNATE human beings to just f*ck off away from me, though.

So basically, if they're near someone else that's fine. Just not near you?



Am afraid I'm in the "just deserts" camp. You do bad things and bad things happen to you, that's karma.

We need to get tougher in this country. Lovely people like this will then be disincentivised from doing stuff like this in the first place.

[Centurion07]

MocMocaMoc said:

Just to say, I'm no apologist - but without knowing the history of these two fellas I'm unable to label them as 'scum'.

The Bolton News said:

The family did not wish to pay tribute to the brothers

Luckily someone that does know their history has done it for you.

[037]

I heard the police helicopter in the air near my house from 5.30 that evening. It was still hovering at 9.30 when I went to the pub. I live about 3 miles away from where it happened. I drove the road the other day and there are windows broken and burn marks on the houses closest to the incident. Probably very scary if you would have been anywhere near by.
For what! 2 scrotes joyriding a stolen car, how 1990's.
lets just hope their peers learn something from this!
I feel sorry for the people who had to recover the body's.
Incidents like this effect lots and lots of people.

[MocMocaMoc]

Murph7355 said:

Lovely people like this will then be disincentivised from doing stuff like this in the first place.

Are you calling these SCUM 'lovely' people?!

>200 posts criticising your choice of language, your character, your past posts on this forum, and your Mam just because that's the done thing<

; )

Ha, sorry. Fair enough mate. Each to their own.

[Andy Zarse]

MocMocaMoc said:

As a regular cyclist...

Oh that explains a lot, it really does!

[MocMocaMoc]

Andy Zarse said:

MocMocaMoc said:

As a regular cyclist...

Oh that explains a lot, it really does!

Thanks.

Edit, would you like to quote that full sentence so the forum knows what we're dealing with here?

Edited by MocMocaMoc on Wednesday 13th February 22:56

[aizvara]

BIANCO said:

So you are ok with someone being put into a position where they need to kill someone face to face and will more than likely live with the trauma of that for rest of their life. But when one of these people do it to themselves you feel sorry for them?

No. I didn't say that; you've obviously only read that one comment of mine and interpreted the relative term "far happier" as actually "happy". I am not and wouldn't be even slightly OK with any of the scenarios apart from the "actually in prison for the full term so they couldn't have caused this situation".

Also, regarding feeling sorry for them, I think I already covered that:

aizvara said:

I can't summon much sympathy but I sincerely hope they weren't still aware as the vehicle caught fire.

For the record, and I realise I cannot know this for sure: if it were me they threatened and robbed I expect if I did not attempt to foolishly defend my family it would eat away at me just as surely as if I did react violently and killed or seriously injured them. I don't think you can win either way, but knowing my own feelings about previously being threatened and feeling powerless, doing nothing, I might well prefer to live with the result of the other choice.

[Burnham]

AJS- said:

When our legal system is completely impotent in dealing with such people, yet precludes people from defending their own property is it really surprising that people are pleased that natural selection has filled in where our society has failed?

Best would be no stolen car.

Next would be an effective justice system that forces them to repair the damage they do and ensures they don't do it again.

Acceptable would be a justice system that removes the possibility of them committing further crimes.

Given we have none of these things, and many examples of people who routinely offend and reoffend as though it were a career choice, I am quite happy to see them face the ultimate consequences of their own stupidity and glad to know that tonight there are two less people who might steal my car and threaten to shoot anyone who stops them.

Well said.

[Rosun]

At their ages of 27 & 33 lets just see what falls out in the wash at what these two "lovely people" have done previously.

Then let us decide whether they are a loss to society (invented a cure for cancer / re-homed abandoned dogs / did the shopping for their neighbours in the snow) or were they scroats who plagued the people who had to share the same planet as them.

Further to my earlier post, I'm guessing the Audi did not have winter tyres fitted.

Virtual pint in the internet world for the owner of the Audi. I think the Germans call it Schadenfreude.

[AJS-]

Sparta VAG said:

AJS- said:

...yet precludes people from defending their own property

But it doesn't, does it?

Going back to this, yes it does.

Not if you happen to catch a burglar in the act, ask him to leave, and be willing and able to tackle him if he doesn't comply. If you want to do the sort of thing that a rational human being would do - like blowing their heads off from an upstairs window, or leaping out of a shadow and felling them with a cricket bat, then the law very much does prohibit this. If you were even more active and tracked down the offenders yourself and administered your own justice then the law would be quite hard on you. And rightly so, in a society where laws are upheld and criminals are dealt with by the justice system, but that condition doesn't seem to be fulfilled in the way we deal with criminals.

[Andy Zarse]

MocMocaMoc said:

Thanks.

Edit, would you like to quote that full sentence so the forum knows what we're dealing with here?

Edited by MocMocaMoc on Wednesday 13th February 22:56

No point as the forum has already worked you out; you're a bearded militant trendy leftwing cyclist!

[Murph7355]

MocMocaMoc said:

Murph7355 said:

Lovely people like this will then be disincentivised from doing stuff like this in the first place.

Are you calling these SCUM 'lovely' people?!

>200 posts criticising your choice of language, your character, your past posts on this forum, and your Mam just because that's the done thing<

; )

Ha, sorry. Fair enough mate. Each to their own.

Not keen on the word "scum". It's too Daily Mail

And just so that no one else thinks I pick on cyclists, I haven't derided you in one post, let alone 200 Your mam on the other hand...

[ApexJimi]

Jessicus said:

Forget good - I hope that their last moments on this earth were full of fear, pain and regret for the way that they had chosen to live their lives.

These weren't unfortunate people - they had the fortune to be born in the UK. A place with free education up to 18, a free health service, a (mostly) democratic government and a place which has social security from cradle to grave. A place where no-one needs to commit crime.

They CHOSE to enrich themselves by violating other peoples property, causing fear and untold misery.

I hope their deaths were agonizing.

This. With bells on.

[heebeegeetee]

MocMocaMoc said:

But to derive glee from the news that two people, regardless of the circumstances, had burned to death? If I did, I'd have serious concerns about my own character.

I think you're completely missing something here. I am glad that about what happened to these two people, but not because I'm a spiteful person, in fact I think I'm a very good person with a strong sense of what's right.

I feel these two aholes have met a form of natural justice that a man-made justice system could not deliver. By that I don't mean that we should be able to burn them ourselves, (indeed I'm very much against the death penalty).
I am glad because just for once people of this type have met the correct and natural form of, I dunno, karma? And I'm very glad that they died before they could kill anyone else and I'm glad that they can't continue to be as much a massive drain on the good people in society, although I despair that they're still able to cost us because some do-gooder somewhere thought they needed a community/liason police officer or somesuch.

[cjb1]

Birdster said:

I love the way that they had to drop in:

"Greater Manchester Police said despite the pair having different surnames, the two victims were brothers."

Just had different milkmen?

[cjb1]

MocMocaMoc said:

This forum never fails to surprise.

To those responding 'GOOD'.

A car was stolen and people have died - a 'good' end to this tale would be the reversal of time, for no car to have been stolen and no one to have died.

What happened is in no way 'good'. It's a sad and tragic story.

I retract that - a 'good' end to this story would be for everyone who replied with 'good' to never ever voice their opinion on anything ever again.

GOOD.

Make your flippin' mind up?

[cjb1]

Koofler said:

So, do we think that these 'unfortunate' brothers would have acted any differently to this (presumably) unfortunate driver?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21447212

MocMocaMoc, if you can tear yourself away from the waves, I'd genuinely like to know what your thoughts are on a suitable punishment in this case, for the driver?

Pissing on his grave springs to mind?