mansion tax

[The Wookie]

walm said:

I think that is a lie.

You might well do the math and work out your OVERALL tax bill on a country-per-country basis.

Then you would see how much it would cost you to live where.

I strongly doubt you would move to a country where you had to pay MORE even if they had no mansion tax.
Would you?
That just sounds irrational or incredibly churlish!

Are you suggesting that the UK has the lowest overall tax burden of any developed nation?

[walm]

The Wookie said:

walm said:

I think that is a lie.

You might well do the math and work out your OVERALL tax bill on a country-per-country basis.

Then you would see how much it would cost you to live where.

I strongly doubt you would move to a country where you had to pay MORE even if they had no mansion tax.
Would you?
That just sounds irrational or incredibly churlish!

Are you suggesting that the UK has the lowest overall tax burden of any developed nation?

No - not at all.

I am suggesting that moving country owing to the WAY a tax is raised is nuts.
Most sane people would consider ALL their taxes in the cost of moving country.
Focusing on the mere existence of ONE PARTICULAR tax (forget how much it actually costs) and then deciding that you would move somewhere potentially more expensive is a terrible idea.

[98elise]

turbobloke said:

walm said:

turbobloke said:

NomduJour said:

walm said:

But right now the money has to come from somewhere.

The government collects an insane amount of money, that is not the problem.

Agreed it is already an insane amount - with a hole in the bucket, pouring even more water in is not the solution.

I agree with that - honestly!
But I wasn't addressing the obvious and cretinous overspending - that seemed a given!
I was simply defending the idea of one avenue of raising tax revenue (needed or not!).

OK fair enough but the LibDims themselves say that if they were in charge and could implement their proposed mansion tax it would raise £1.2bn and that sum is not going to fix the deficit which stands at around £22bn never mind the national debt. It may have an overall negative impact if other tax-takes (e.g. income, corporation, CGT) reduce when people in the national and international marketplace see that LD or similar taxhappyclappy idiots are in charge of the UK economy and that enterprise and successful individuals are not welcome but penalised - and worse, the innocent occupants of barely-above-standard family homes in London are being demonised.

£22bn deficit? More like £170bn!

[The Wookie]

walm said:

The Wookie said:

walm said:

I think that is a lie.

You might well do the math and work out your OVERALL tax bill on a country-per-country basis.

Then you would see how much it would cost you to live where.

I strongly doubt you would move to a country where you had to pay MORE even if they had no mansion tax.
Would you?
That just sounds irrational or incredibly churlish!

Are you suggesting that the UK has the lowest overall tax burden of any developed nation?

No - not at all.

I am suggesting that moving country owing to the WAY a tax is raised is nuts.
Most sane people would consider ALL their taxes in the cost of moving country.
Focusing on the mere existence of ONE PARTICULAR tax (forget how much it actually costs) and then deciding that you would move somewhere potentially more expensive is a terrible idea.

Where did I say that exactly?

And I'm saying that I live in the UK because it's where my home is. If I'm forced to move home then I most certainly wouldn't restrict myself to another property in the UK, there are plenty of places I'd rather live regardless of Tax.

[DonkeyApple]

walm said:

DA - I think you make some great points and I rarely find myself disagreeing with you so please don't think of me as some green-eyed Guardian-reading commie. (Check my posting history in the finance forum for an idea of my day job for example...!)

HOWEVER - I think you are being a little sneaky with your numbers.

Your scenario makes a lot of sense. BUT it is very rare to have phenomenal house price inflation without wage inflation.

I know that has happened recently but bear with me.

If someone's £500k house is worth £2m 25 years later (perfectly possible) then isn't it reasonable to assume there has been pretty substantial wage inflation too? Not to mention that the market would be up a bunch and hence savings nicely compounding.

So again, someone who has a £2m central london property who has just retired after 25 years of paying down the mortgage is VERY likely to be quite well off.

If they initially bought on a 4x multiple of earnings and the earnings/value (aka affordability) has remained fairly constant (from already high levels today) then they would be earning something like £400k per annum without ANY non-inflation linked salary rises.
And they have £2m in capital (minimum).

I know we usually agree. It's why I was surprised at your desire to crap up sweet little old ladies.

An interesting thing about City wages is that they only really rocketed in the last decade or so. As such pensioners in their 70s wouldn't have actually benefitted from this effect.

In the South East there are an awful lot of pensioners in what we would consider modest homes but with a value in excess of £2M but living on annuity income where fuel and tax inflation has already eaten in.

I do feel very strongly that any property tax should be to specifically curb investment capital and not impact on owner occupiers.

I'd be happy to pay an annual tax for our second home as I see it as a luxury asset. Likewise the BTLs, I'd pay an annual tax. I have such an advantage over owner occupier buyers that a 1% annual value tax could easily be absorbed but would also serve to slow the BTL impact. And then you look at all the bent cash that has flooded in to London residential since 2007. Where I am has increased 20% in the last 15 months. Salaries haven't. Locals aren't buying. It's all foreign money. This money that forces up London values then knocks on to the rest of the UK forcing millions into excessive property inflation and debt. I would screw that money as it is toxic and is damaging everyone in the UK.

So in short I think it would benefit the whole of the UK to tax any residential property asset which isn't a taxpayers' primary domicile but that it would be devastating to have another in life IHT mechanism that will eventually target almost every British home owner.

[turbobloke]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

[turbobloke]

98elise said:

turbobloke said:

walm said:

turbobloke said:

NomduJour said:

walm said:

But right now the money has to come from somewhere.

The government collects an insane amount of money, that is not the problem.

Agreed it is already an insane amount - with a hole in the bucket, pouring even more water in is not the solution.

I agree with that - honestly!
But I wasn't addressing the obvious and cretinous overspending - that seemed a given!
I was simply defending the idea of one avenue of raising tax revenue (needed or not!).

OK fair enough but the LibDims themselves say that if they were in charge and could implement their proposed mansion tax it would raise £1.2bn and that sum is not going to fix the deficit which stands at around £22bn never mind the national debt. It may have an overall negative impact if other tax-takes (e.g. income, corporation, CGT) reduce when people in the national and international marketplace see that LD or similar taxhappyclappy idiots are in charge of the UK economy and that enterprise and successful individuals are not welcome but penalised - and worse, the innocent occupants of barely-above-standard family homes in London are being demonised.

£22bn deficit? More like £170bn!

The point I thought I was making, relating to the current account deficit, was hampered by not typing 'current account'.



Thanks for the nudge.

[IroningMan]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

If the Government value my house at £500k for mansion tax purposes then they should be obliged to buy it from me for that sum...

[Type R Tom]

May be I have a different opinion on a mansion but I'm struggling to find a modest house worth £2m

First house on Rightmove for £2m
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prope...

[walm]

The Wookie said:

Where did I say that exactly?

The Wookie said:

One thing's for sure, if I were retired and forced to sell my hypothetical £2 million pound house because of a Mansion Tax, I'd be spending it on a house in another country that didn't have one, preferably a country that didn't have such crap weather and roads.

[NomduJour]

Type R Tom said:

May be I have a different opinion on a mansion but I'm struggling to find a modest house worth £2m

London's full of them. But that isn't the point.

[walm]

Type R Tom said:

May be I have a different opinion on a mansion but I'm struggling to find a modest house worth £2m

Change the postcode to W1. This is a one-bed.
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prope...

[jdw1234]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Also, a significant number of people earning over £150k will be reliant on an annual bonus/partnership profit share/dividend and so their normal regular monthly paycheck will be significantly lower than 1/12.

[Type R Tom]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

It's hardly modest though is it and around 5 times bigger than the average UK house.

[Rovinghawk]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Only 2 bathrooms- what a hovel!

I don't agree with wealth taxes but don't tell me that's a pauper's home.

[scenario8]

You don't hear much cheering at that football ground these days. Well, not from three ends anyway.

[turbobloke]

Rovinghawk said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Only 2 bathrooms- what a hovel!

I don't agree with wealth taxes but don't tell me that's a pauper's home.

Move it out to SW18 and it'd be a snip at £800k to £900k, given it's similar to one I was looking at more out of humour than interest.

Transplant it to Grimsby and it's yours for £180k.

[NomduJour]

turbobloke said:

Move it out to SW18 and it'd be a snip at £800k to £900k

Think you'd be lucky, even in Southfields.

[NDA]

babatunde said:

who do you think put in place policies that allow you as an individual to acquire so much more wealth than 99% of your fellow citizens. the tax you pay is a small price.

Nobody did. I worked harder than most, risked my savings....

We are fast turning into a society where success is something to envy rather than applaud - 'you can afford to shell out more cash mate' is the attitude.

[scenario8]

I thought that, too. But I wouldn't have been quite so brave as to have said "even Southfields". I'm far too polite.