Discussion
18 months on and Labour still don't have a clue how this will actually work. When being interviewed by Andrew Neil about this Andy Burnham of Labour said the mansion tax would be introduced immediately on a Labour victory but could not say how the properties would be valued.
Initially he said they would use Land Registry records until it was pointed out that these only show the price at the last recorded sale. Then he said something like 'well we'll use the official house price valuation' before finally admitting he didn't have a clue how the value would be determined.
Initially he said they would use Land Registry records until it was pointed out that these only show the price at the last recorded sale. Then he said something like 'well we'll use the official house price valuation' before finally admitting he didn't have a clue how the value would be determined.
Thanks BL for picking this one up. One question I would have is whether it is a tax to be paid each year or whether it is a tax to be paid on purchase (or sale) of the property. If the former then it will clobber people with valuable houses and low incomes. If the latter then it will simply end up being another level of stamp duty.
What is immediately clear is that it is the politics of envy, writ large.
Oli.
What is immediately clear is that it is the politics of envy, writ large.
Oli.
BlackLabel said:
18 months on and Labour still don't have a clue how this will actually work. When being interviewed by Andrew Neil about this Andy Burnham of Labour said the mansion tax would be introduced immediately on a Labour victory but could not say how the properties would be valued.
Initially he said they would use Land Registry records until it was pointed out that these only show the price at the last recorded sale. Then he said something like 'well we'll use the official house price valuation' before finally admitting he didn't have a clue how the value would be determined.
And other Laboir MPs are saying that the tax will kick in on £400k properties. Initially he said they would use Land Registry records until it was pointed out that these only show the price at the last recorded sale. Then he said something like 'well we'll use the official house price valuation' before finally admitting he didn't have a clue how the value would be determined.
The £2m is just a vote winning number to get the envious and hate filled to support it. Once enacted it will be at a much lower level that hits most home owners who have a decent job.
It will also force almost all pensioners in nice houses to sell up and shift more South East assets into overseas hands.
As per usual it is an election pledge for the stupid and envious and they will be voting for their own downfall.
DonkeyApple said:
And other Laboir MPs are saying that the tax will kick in on £400k properties.
The £2m is just a vote winning number to get the envious and hate filled to support it. Once enacted it will be at a much lower level that hits most home owners who have a decent job.
It will also force almost all pensioners in nice houses to sell up and shift more South East assets into overseas hands.
As per usual it is an election pledge for the stupid and envious and they will be voting for their own downfall.
It is either set at a high level and doesn't raise much money (bearing in mind the impact on the top end of the market and stamp duty receipts). Or it becomes, instead of a mansion tax, any decent house in the south east tax, which doesn't have quite the same ring to it but does fit Labour's tribal politics. The £2m is just a vote winning number to get the envious and hate filled to support it. Once enacted it will be at a much lower level that hits most home owners who have a decent job.
It will also force almost all pensioners in nice houses to sell up and shift more South East assets into overseas hands.
As per usual it is an election pledge for the stupid and envious and they will be voting for their own downfall.
JagLover said:
DonkeyApple said:
And other Laboir MPs are saying that the tax will kick in on £400k properties.
The £2m is just a vote winning number to get the envious and hate filled to support it. Once enacted it will be at a much lower level that hits most home owners who have a decent job.
It will also force almost all pensioners in nice houses to sell up and shift more South East assets into overseas hands.
As per usual it is an election pledge for the stupid and envious and they will be voting for their own downfall.
It is either set at a high level and doesn't raise much money (bearing in mind the impact on the top end of the market and stamp duty receipts). Or it becomes, instead of a mansion tax, any decent house in the south east tax, which doesn't have quite the same ring to it but does fit Labour's tribal politics. The £2m is just a vote winning number to get the envious and hate filled to support it. Once enacted it will be at a much lower level that hits most home owners who have a decent job.
It will also force almost all pensioners in nice houses to sell up and shift more South East assets into overseas hands.
As per usual it is an election pledge for the stupid and envious and they will be voting for their own downfall.
king Labour with a passion.
zcacogp said:
Thanks BL for picking this one up. One question I would have is whether it is a tax to be paid each year or whether it is a tax to be paid on purchase (or sale) of the property. If the former then it will clobber people with valuable houses and low incomes. If the latter then it will simply end up being another level of stamp duty.
What is immediately clear is that it is the politics of envy, writ large.
Oli.
It has always been talked about as an annual tax. 2% has been a number bandied around. So own a £3mio house and you will be asked to write a cheque for £60k a year. The value of large houses will collapse.What is immediately clear is that it is the politics of envy, writ large.
Oli.
It will indeed hurt those with low incomes but valuable houses - pensioners, for instance.
There was some talk about being able to roll up the liability until death (so pensioners would slowly sign their house over to the state) or until the property is sold. In reality, the government needs the money now so I think that is unlikely.
DonkeyApple said:
And other Laboir MPs are saying that the tax will kick in on £400k properties.
The £2m is just a vote winning number to get the envious and hate filled to support it. Once enacted it will be at a much lower level that hits most home owners who have a decent job.
It will also force almost all pensioners in nice houses to sell up and shift more South East assets into overseas hands.
As per usual it is an election pledge for the stupid and envious and they will be voting for their own downfall.
This.The £2m is just a vote winning number to get the envious and hate filled to support it. Once enacted it will be at a much lower level that hits most home owners who have a decent job.
It will also force almost all pensioners in nice houses to sell up and shift more South East assets into overseas hands.
As per usual it is an election pledge for the stupid and envious and they will be voting for their own downfall.
They will have some regional variations (trying to keep votes in London) but that is then the thin end of the wedge.
Once the principle is established the bands will fall / not be raised for inflation until anyone with a decent home will be caught.
Dog-whistle politics.
Assuming the £2m moves with inflation (which it probably won’t but anyway) would it really affect that many people, taking Kent where I live, the number of properties £2m and above is 164 out of 13604 currently for sale on prime location, or 1.21% of all the houses in Kent will be effected.
To avoid upsetting all those old dears that are living in £2m properties that can’t afford the tax (but are somehow maintaining the place) just make it applicable to people that have bought the house in say the last 10 years.
Oh and I just checked London quickly, 59,506 currently for sale 5005 over £2m or 8.41% (prime location) so a tax would affect less than 10 of the people in London today. I think the key is whether the tax moves with property prices or not.
To avoid upsetting all those old dears that are living in £2m properties that can’t afford the tax (but are somehow maintaining the place) just make it applicable to people that have bought the house in say the last 10 years.
Oh and I just checked London quickly, 59,506 currently for sale 5005 over £2m or 8.41% (prime location) so a tax would affect less than 10 of the people in London today. I think the key is whether the tax moves with property prices or not.
Is there to be a different tax band applied to people who have just paid £2,000,001 cash for a "mansion" than those who paid £300,000 for it 20 years ago?
Thought not.
Is someone who sells their £4 million "mansion" and buys four £1 million homes less "rich" than they were before?
No
Is someone who lives in a £2 million 20-room "mansion" in Scotland situated in 50 acres of land going to pay more tax than someone who lives in a three-bedroom terrace "mansion" in a desirable London post code?
No
Is there a legal precedent for applying tax on the notional paper value of an asset that has not been liquidated?
Probably not
If house prices drop 20 per cent, will people who have been taxed on their £2,500,000 "mansion" get a refund if the "mansion" then become valued at £1,999,000?
Probably not
Will the "mansion tax" raise anything more than a billion of so quid (i.e. a rounding up error on the national balance sheet)?
No
Is someone who has bought their "mansion" with a £500,000 mortgage going to be allowed £500,000 tax relief compared with someone who has paid £2 million cash?
Who knows?
Will the price of houses below £2 million increase substantially due to more demand for the sub-£2m bracket thus making homes for FTB's even more unaffordable?
Undoubtedly
In it thus an iniquitous and cynical political ploy to appeal to the lowest-common-denominator Labour voter and is likely to be unworkable at best and subject to any number of legal challenges and judicial reviews.
Yes
Thought not.
Is someone who sells their £4 million "mansion" and buys four £1 million homes less "rich" than they were before?
No
Is someone who lives in a £2 million 20-room "mansion" in Scotland situated in 50 acres of land going to pay more tax than someone who lives in a three-bedroom terrace "mansion" in a desirable London post code?
No
Is there a legal precedent for applying tax on the notional paper value of an asset that has not been liquidated?
Probably not
If house prices drop 20 per cent, will people who have been taxed on their £2,500,000 "mansion" get a refund if the "mansion" then become valued at £1,999,000?
Probably not
Will the "mansion tax" raise anything more than a billion of so quid (i.e. a rounding up error on the national balance sheet)?
No
Is someone who has bought their "mansion" with a £500,000 mortgage going to be allowed £500,000 tax relief compared with someone who has paid £2 million cash?
Who knows?
Will the price of houses below £2 million increase substantially due to more demand for the sub-£2m bracket thus making homes for FTB's even more unaffordable?
Undoubtedly
In it thus an iniquitous and cynical political ploy to appeal to the lowest-common-denominator Labour voter and is likely to be unworkable at best and subject to any number of legal challenges and judicial reviews.
Yes
Edited by audidoody on Wednesday 24th September 14:09
Is there to be a different tax band applied to people who have just paid £2,000,001 cash for a "mansion" than those who paid £300,000 for it 20 years ago?
Thought not.
Is someone who sells their £4 million "mansion" and buys four £1 million homes less "rich" than they were before?
No
Is someone who lives in a £2 million 20-room "mansion" in Scotland situated in 50 acres of land going to pay more tax than someone who lives in a three-bedroom terrace "mansion" in a desirable London post code?
No
Is there a legal precedent for applying tax on the notional paper value of an asset that has not been liquidated?
Probably not
If house prices drop 20 per cent, will people who have been taxed on their £2,500,000 "mansion" get a refund if the "mansion" then become valued at £1,999,000?
Probably not
Will the "mansion tax" raise anything more than a billion of so quid (i.e. a rounding up error on the national balance sheet)?
No
Is someone who has bought their "mansion" with a £500,000 mortgage going to be allowed £500,000 tax relief compared with someone who has paid £2 million cash?
Who knows?
Will the price of houses below £2 million increase substantially due to more demand for the sub-£2m bracket thus making homes for FTB's even more unaffordable?
Undoubtedly
In it thus an iniquitous and cynical political ploy to appeal to the lowest-common-denominator Labour voter and is likely to be unworkable at best and subject to any number of legal challenges and judicial reviews.
Yes
Thought not.
Is someone who sells their £4 million "mansion" and buys four £1 million homes less "rich" than they were before?
No
Is someone who lives in a £2 million 20-room "mansion" in Scotland situated in 50 acres of land going to pay more tax than someone who lives in a three-bedroom terrace "mansion" in a desirable London post code?
No
Is there a legal precedent for applying tax on the notional paper value of an asset that has not been liquidated?
Probably not
If house prices drop 20 per cent, will people who have been taxed on their £2,500,000 "mansion" get a refund if the "mansion" then become valued at £1,999,000?
Probably not
Will the "mansion tax" raise anything more than a billion of so quid (i.e. a rounding up error on the national balance sheet)?
No
Is someone who has bought their "mansion" with a £500,000 mortgage going to be allowed £500,000 tax relief compared with someone who has paid £2 million cash?
Who knows?
Will the price of houses below £2 million increase substantially due to more demand for the sub-£2m bracket thus making homes for FTB's even more unaffordable?
Undoubtedly
In it thus an iniquitous and cynical political ploy to appeal to the lowest-common-denominator Labour voter and is likely to be unworkable at best and subject to any number of legal challenges and judicial reviews.
Yes
Edited by audidoody on Wednesday 24th September 14:09
Type R Tom said:
Assuming the £2m moves with inflation (which it probably won’t but anyway) would it really affect that many people, taking Kent where I live, the number of properties £2m and above is 164 out of 13604 currently for sale on prime location, or 1.21% of all the houses in Kent will be effected.
To avoid upsetting all those old dears that are living in £2m properties that can’t afford the tax (but are somehow maintaining the place) just make it applicable to people that have bought the house in say the last 10 years.
Oh and I just checked London quickly, 59,506 currently for sale 5005 over £2m or 8.41% (prime location) so a tax would affect less than 10 of the people in London today. I think the key is whether the tax moves with property prices or not.
That's why it won't be £2m. It'll be nearer to £500k. Otherwise it won't work. To avoid upsetting all those old dears that are living in £2m properties that can’t afford the tax (but are somehow maintaining the place) just make it applicable to people that have bought the house in say the last 10 years.
Oh and I just checked London quickly, 59,506 currently for sale 5005 over £2m or 8.41% (prime location) so a tax would affect less than 10 of the people in London today. I think the key is whether the tax moves with property prices or not.
Just think of it as a doubling/tripling of your council tax. As CT Banding is the only current tool such a tax can be based on.
BlackLabel said:
18 months on and Labour still don't have a clue how this will actually work. When being interviewed by Andrew Neil about this Andy Burnham of Labour said the mansion tax would be introduced immediately on a Labour victory but could not say how the properties would be valued.
Initially he said they would use Land Registry records until it was pointed out that these only show the price at the last recorded sale. Then he said something like 'well we'll use the official house price valuation' before finally admitting he didn't have a clue how the value would be determined.
Was listening to that earlier on - he came across as a complete plum. Doesn't have a clue how it's going to work but he bloody loves it anyway.Initially he said they would use Land Registry records until it was pointed out that these only show the price at the last recorded sale. Then he said something like 'well we'll use the official house price valuation' before finally admitting he didn't have a clue how the value would be determined.
Well if the threshold begins at 400k to become "The any decent house in the South East tax" as speculated above then civil unrest will return to Trafalgar Square.
Also as mentioned the whole thing is unworkable, there will be copious legal challenges and more holes in it than a Swiss cheese.
Also as mentioned the whole thing is unworkable, there will be copious legal challenges and more holes in it than a Swiss cheese.
Uncle John said:
Well if the threshold begins at 400k to become "The any decent house in the South East tax" as speculated above then civil unrest will return to Trafalgar Square.
Also as mentioned the whole thing is unworkable, there will be copious legal challenges and more holes in it than a Swiss cheese.
Only non tax payers revolt over taxes. Tax payers will simply vote for it and then pay it. At best they will then moan about it being unfair etc..Also as mentioned the whole thing is unworkable, there will be copious legal challenges and more holes in it than a Swiss cheese.
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