If Michael Foot had been prime minister.......

[Smiler.]

Foot & Powell were friends. A little-known fact that always brings a smile to my face when watching the internal anguish of the leftists having just been made aware of the fact.

[TTwiggy]

AJS- said:

SNIP - but I wish people would start to see the inhumane, brutal reality of socialism for what it is, rather than seeing it as some likable eccentricity amongst some well meaning people.

I've never really been able to grasp why some posters on here have such hatred for socialism. I cannot fathom how it is any more 'evil' than many other mainstream political ideals. To my mind, the difference between socialism and capitalism simply lies in a shift of ownership between the 'many' and the 'few'. Both have good and bad points; neither seems 'perfect' nor 'evil' to me.

[MX7]

TTwiggy said:

I've never really been able to grasp why some posters on here have such hatred for socialism. I cannot fathom how it is any more 'evil' than many other mainstream political ideals. To my mind, the difference between socialism and capitalism simply lies in a shift of ownership between the 'many' and the 'few'. Both have good and bad points; neither seems 'perfect' nor 'evil' to me.

Read What's Left? by Nick Cohen.

[TTwiggy]

MX7 said:

Read What's Left? by Nick Cohen.

Care to give me a synopsis?

[Twincam16]

TTwiggy said:

AJS- said:

SNIP - but I wish people would start to see the inhumane, brutal reality of socialism for what it is, rather than seeing it as some likable eccentricity amongst some well meaning people.

I've never really been able to grasp why some posters on here have such hatred for socialism. I cannot fathom how it is any more 'evil' than many other mainstream political ideals. To my mind, the difference between socialism and capitalism simply lies in a shift of ownership between the 'many' and the 'few'. Both have good and bad points; neither seems 'perfect' nor 'evil' to me.

Exactly. I suspect many on here can't extricate socialism from Stalinist Communism, which is about as far removed from most forms of socialism as the extreme capitalism of the Middle East is from Western social democracy.

I can't see what's 'evil' about expecting society's wealthy to cough up a bit of cash to make sure the people who work for them (directly or indirectly) don't starve, freeze or die of curable illnesses, nor setting policies to benefit the majority rather than the proven failure of the assumed 'trickle-down' effect (it's been more of a 'trickle-up'), nor maximising job opportunities for the majority rather than sacking everyone in the name of 'efficiency'.

[MX7]

TTwiggy said:

MX7 said:

Read What's Left? by Nick Cohen.

Care to give me a synopsis?

It highlights some, actually quite a few, hypocrisies of the left. It's not trying to suggest an alternative really, just pointing out some of the results of having a left government over the past few decades from around the world.

Some reviews here.

[Smiler.]

TTwiggy said:

I've never really been able to grasp why some posters on here have such hatred for socialism.

Although AJS does cite socialism, for me it's mainly the blinkered and/or hypocritical stance that is taken by supporters.

Again, not everyone wears this cap (even some politicians).

But by a country mile, nearly everyone I see frothing at the lefty mouth does so as an opposite to anything a non-socialist says or thinks or telling people how to live their lives whilst enjoying the spoils they'd deny to others.

Like Diane Abbott decrying private schools, then sending her kid to one.

[TTwiggy]

Here's the thing though. Despite the fact that I'm not a socialist, and have never voted for a socialist party, I can easily think of several examples where socialism has worked very well. I would struggle to give specific examples of capitalism working so well, except to say that as a general ideal or model, it probably suits our country and society best.

To use one example and comparison, the John Lewis business model is founded on socialist principles: the workers share in the success of the company, each to their level of commitment to it. By comparison, someone like Tesco would be in the capitalist camp: workers paid minimum wage, products sourced at lowest prices for maximum profit, and an aggressive approach to seeing off the competition.

Now, where would you rather shop?

[s2art]

TTwiggy said:

To use one example and comparison, the John Lewis business model is founded on socialist principles: the workers share in the success of the company, each to their level of commitment to it.

Not so sure that that is socialist. Socialism involves the state owning the means of production. Also, if you consider that model socialist, then what about partnerships in general? What about the big banks paying bonuses based upon profits? Are they working on socialist principles?

[Smiler.]

TTwiggy said:

stuff

Quite right.

But as I said, the lefty mouthpieces couldn't entertain alignment with JL as those near or at the top will be evil capitalists & therefore all the employees must earn the same.

Except, of course when they get to shop there on tax-payer funded expenses or as a result of their tax-payer funded salary.

I hold the attitude of those in the opposite position to the leftists (e.g. the financial types who try to justify their obscene salaries whilst up to the necks in the dodgy filth that was/is a major factor in the mess we are now in) in equal contempt.

[MX7]

TTwiggy said:

To use one example and comparison, the John Lewis business model is founded on socialist principles: the workers share in the success of the company, each to their level of commitment to it. By comparison, someone like Tesco would be in the capitalist camp: workers paid minimum wage, products sourced at lowest prices for maximum profit, and an aggressive approach to seeing off the competition.

Now, where would you rather shop?

You are taking one of the best examples of worker-owned businesses, and comparing it to one of the worst examples of corporate greed.

Where would most rather shop? Unfortunately, Tesco.

[Borghetto]

TTwiggy said:

Here's the thing though. Despite the fact that I'm not a socialist, and have never voted for a socialist party, I can easily think of several examples where socialism has worked very well. I would struggle to give specific examples of capitalism working so well, except to say that as a general ideal or model, it probably suits our country and society best.

To use one example and comparison, the John Lewis business model is founded on socialist principles: the workers share in the success of the company, each to their level of commitment to it. By comparison, someone like Tesco would be in the capitalist camp: workers paid minimum wage, products sourced at lowest prices for maximum profit, and an aggressive approach to seeing off the competition.

Now, where would you rather shop?

A point well made, but how many people on an ordinary income choose or can afford to shop at Waitrose.

[Yertis]

TTwiggy said:

Here's the thing though. Despite the fact that I'm not a socialist, and have never voted for a socialist party, I can easily think of several examples where socialism has worked very well. I would struggle to give specific examples of capitalism working so well, except to say that as a general ideal or model, it probably suits our country and society best.

To use one example and comparison, the John Lewis business model is founded on socialist principles: the workers share in the success of the company, each to their level of commitment to it. By comparison, someone like Tesco would be in the capitalist camp: workers paid minimum wage, products sourced at lowest prices for maximum profit, and an aggressive approach to seeing off the competition.

Now, where would you rather shop?

There's something indefinably smug about Waitrose that completely puts me off, always has.

[Saddle bum]

TTwiggy said:

I've never really been able to grasp why some posters on here have such hatred for socialism. I cannot fathom how it is any more 'evil' than many other mainstream political ideals. To my mind, the difference between socialism and capitalism simply lies in a shift of ownership between the 'many' and the 'few'. Both have good and bad points; neither seems 'perfect' nor 'evil' to me.

Capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth

Socialism is the equal distribution of misery.

Socialism stifles every natural urge for self betterment, at the same time it encourages dependency in an attempt to create loyalty.

[Smiler.]

Saddle bum said:

TTwiggy said:

I've never really been able to grasp why some posters on here have such hatred for socialism. I cannot fathom how it is any more 'evil' than many other mainstream political ideals. To my mind, the difference between socialism and capitalism simply lies in a shift of ownership between the 'many' and the 'few'. Both have good and bad points; neither seems 'perfect' nor 'evil' to me.

Capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth

Socialism is the equal distribution of misery.

Socialism stifles every natural urge for self betterment, at the same time it encourages dependency in an attempt to create loyalty.

Not sure you've got that right. There were some rather enlightened capitalist is the 19th century who held some rather socialist views - to such an extent, they went above and beyond what was usual of the day to provide welfare for their employees.

Or, that could just be because a happy worker is a productive worker.

Either way, what has derailed socialism is the objectionable, self-appointed exponents in the modern day.

[crankedup]

Co-Operative started as a social organisation and is still owned by its Members. And its still doing rather well.

[Steffan]

MX7 said:

TTwiggy said:

MX7 said:

Read What's Left? by Nick Cohen.

Care to give me a synopsis?

It highlights some, actually quite a few, hypocrisies of the left. It's not trying to suggest an alternative really, just pointing out some of the results of having a left government over the past few decades from around the world.

Some reviews here.

In view of the interest in the book I have ordered one from Amazon. 1p plus postage not bad I will read and report.

Foot was utterly unsuited to any real administrative position. A thinker and a dreamer yes. Practical? Pragmatic? Not a chance. A Foot government would have been an absolute disaster. Probably the worst government since the war possibly worse than Tony Blair who was an absolute ste.

The friendship of Powell and Foot is unsurprising since they were both outstanding intellectuals and therefore would have moved in the same circles and shared a similar love of academia and a common bond.

Quote from Alan Watkins Obituary on Foot: Foot admired Powell. And Powell, for his part, loved Foot. "And shall I tell you why I love him?" Powell said, who was much given to answering his own questions. "It is because he speaks beautiful English."

The last line says it all IMO. Academics first: politicians as a hobby. Powell was of course correct. Foot was regarded as the greatest orator since Aneurin Bevan. Now there was a leader albeit left wing.

[Twincam16]

s2art said:

Not so sure that that is socialist. Socialism involves the state owning the means of production.

No, that's a particular brand of statist communism. Socialism merely refers to the workers having a stake in their own business, which as proved by John Lewis, Waitrose and the various parts of the Co-Op, seems to work rather well. Better than plenty of shareholder businesses, come to think of it.

[Fat Fairy]

Just to go in to bat for Tesco's,

Mrs FF worked for Tesco's years ago. She took part in the shares scheme that they ran, getting some free shares and being able to buy more. She is still doing this now. They are not quite as corporately evil as many try to make out.

[vonuber]

Arup, one of the uks leading, successful and famous engineering firms runs on the John Lewis model.