McCanns - man who accused them gets jail sentence
Discussion
Gene Vincent said:
Exaggerated risk aversion is the result of intense publicity around rare occurrences (and these are thankfully rare) but they have an effect, the effect is on the imagination and that is almost impossible to reason with or get back under control.
Snitch you are not alone in letting your imagination get the better of you and it playing out countless variations of awful scenarios in your head, your post is rammed full of them, but your post contains no reference to the actual risk, even more stark is the fact that you try to foist your own unbridled imagination into the arena of the reasonable behaviour.
It is reasonable for you to behave the way you do, because you are in sway to a fervent imagination, those of us with more level heads just see such extreme fears as the overt expression of H&S culture.
Strangely, I share my ''fervent'' imagination with the NSPCC.Snitch you are not alone in letting your imagination get the better of you and it playing out countless variations of awful scenarios in your head, your post is rammed full of them, but your post contains no reference to the actual risk, even more stark is the fact that you try to foist your own unbridled imagination into the arena of the reasonable behaviour.
It is reasonable for you to behave the way you do, because you are in sway to a fervent imagination, those of us with more level heads just see such extreme fears as the overt expression of H&S culture.
But then, what would they know about child safety, compared with you, Gene?
a few years ago - and overlapping with the disappearance of MM - my wife worked nights. She did this for about five year. It suited us because we had two young kids and her working nights meant we incurred no childcare costs because I was there to look after them.
Every now and then, late of an evening, I would go to make myself a coffee, or some toast and would find that we had run out of milk, or bread or whatever. I live less than half a mile away from a late night convenience store but not once did ever go out and leave the kids alone even though it would only have taken me a few minutes. The reason I didn't do it wasn't because I was worried about the kids being abducted, nor was I especially worried that the house would catch fire - I just didnt' do it because I believe fundamentaly that it was 'wrong' to leave two young very children alone in the house.
Occasionally my daughter used to wake up having nightmares - I was always there for her.
Does that make me a perfect parent? Certainly not, but I have always found it insulting that the McCanns claim that what they did was acceptable behaviour and their oft-repeated suggestion that it is common practive is an insult to the vast majority of parents who wouldn't dream of looking after their children with the same nonchalant carefree approach taken by Mr and Mrs McCann.
Every now and then, late of an evening, I would go to make myself a coffee, or some toast and would find that we had run out of milk, or bread or whatever. I live less than half a mile away from a late night convenience store but not once did ever go out and leave the kids alone even though it would only have taken me a few minutes. The reason I didn't do it wasn't because I was worried about the kids being abducted, nor was I especially worried that the house would catch fire - I just didnt' do it because I believe fundamentaly that it was 'wrong' to leave two young very children alone in the house.
Occasionally my daughter used to wake up having nightmares - I was always there for her.
Does that make me a perfect parent? Certainly not, but I have always found it insulting that the McCanns claim that what they did was acceptable behaviour and their oft-repeated suggestion that it is common practive is an insult to the vast majority of parents who wouldn't dream of looking after their children with the same nonchalant carefree approach taken by Mr and Mrs McCann.
Edited by rover 623gsi on Sunday 24th February 10:56
TheSnitch said:
Just a quick aside to the ''exaggerated risk, that wouldn't happen'' brigade.
If the McCanns are telling the truth, it clearly DID happen, didn't it?
They left their children alone to stroll to the restaurant for dinner, and now a child is gone.
If you get behind the wheel and don't bother doing up your seatbelt, it doesn't increase your likelihood of having a crash. That remains a rare event. But it does mean that in the event of something going wrong, and you having a crash, you are likely to be completely screwed.
And that's the point about leaving your kids home alone. if something does go wrong, and you are not there, all the ''we were only 80 yards away/gone for half an hour/in a gated community'' excuses are not going to bring your kid back.
You have (unwittingly) outlined exactly what a mind will conjure up from not taking due regard to the probability of anything happening at all, you compound the 'madness' by comparing an exceptionally rare event to a fairly common event as if that makes sense.If the McCanns are telling the truth, it clearly DID happen, didn't it?
They left their children alone to stroll to the restaurant for dinner, and now a child is gone.
If you get behind the wheel and don't bother doing up your seatbelt, it doesn't increase your likelihood of having a crash. That remains a rare event. But it does mean that in the event of something going wrong, and you having a crash, you are likely to be completely screwed.
And that's the point about leaving your kids home alone. if something does go wrong, and you are not there, all the ''we were only 80 yards away/gone for half an hour/in a gated community'' excuses are not going to bring your kid back.
Until you gain control of your imagination and the learn to assess risk correctly you will continue to expound this exaggerated fear.
Mermaid said:
Breadvan72 said:
Nope, no babysitters. Spanish countryside. Small hotel, no spare staff, and all total strangers to us and the child. We asked, but they said, sorry, can't help.
So, now kindly answer me, if you will: do you sleep with your eyes open next to your children? If not, by your own measure you are unfit to be a parent and must hand yourself in to social services. I am not sure that you have really thought this one through.
Holiday situation (unfamiliar surroundings) to me is different from the home environment.So, now kindly answer me, if you will: do you sleep with your eyes open next to your children? If not, by your own measure you are unfit to be a parent and must hand yourself in to social services. I am not sure that you have really thought this one through.
BTW: I never have and never would stroll down to the shop for a pint of milk or a packet of horseburgers while leaving my child alone in the house. Well, maybe when she's 20, I might, if I can trust her not to steal my car.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 24th February 10:57
TheSnitch said:
Gene Vincent said:
Exaggerated risk aversion is the result of intense publicity around rare occurrences (and these are thankfully rare) but they have an effect, the effect is on the imagination and that is almost impossible to reason with or get back under control.
Snitch you are not alone in letting your imagination get the better of you and it playing out countless variations of awful scenarios in your head, your post is rammed full of them, but your post contains no reference to the actual risk, even more stark is the fact that you try to foist your own unbridled imagination into the arena of the reasonable behaviour.
It is reasonable for you to behave the way you do, because you are in sway to a fervent imagination, those of us with more level heads just see such extreme fears as the overt expression of H&S culture.
Strangely, I share my ''fervent'' imagination with the NSPCC.Snitch you are not alone in letting your imagination get the better of you and it playing out countless variations of awful scenarios in your head, your post is rammed full of them, but your post contains no reference to the actual risk, even more stark is the fact that you try to foist your own unbridled imagination into the arena of the reasonable behaviour.
It is reasonable for you to behave the way you do, because you are in sway to a fervent imagination, those of us with more level heads just see such extreme fears as the overt expression of H&S culture.
But then, what would they know about child safety, compared with you, Gene?
Breadvan72 said:
Motorvator, most lawyers are rarely litigious in their own right, and I have the thickest of skins, so you can say whatever you like about me, and I won't mind at all. I have no idea if the McCanns would want to sue you for saying, in effect, that there are at least some grounds to suspect them of murder, but may I ask if you think it fair to expose the owners of this website to litigation risk by saying that here? If you want to take on the McCanns, why not write to them saying that you intend to publish that allegation in a leaflet or on your own website? Then you could have a lovely fight with them and feel all great, but why drag poor old PH in?
It's not my job to take the McCanns on. What sits uncomfortably with me here is that the investigation itself seems to have been hampered by their actions and it appears to be your position that it should be left and not open for discussion.I am probably as thick skinned as maybe you legal types and in the same position can't see me taking the same lines as the Mcanns which only fuels the debate.
To my mind they either feel comfortable with their actions on the night and thereafter or not. Is so why should they care what anyone thinks unless it is hampering investigation of what happened. If not of course they should say so and maybe accept a little culpability.
Breadvan72 said:
TheSnitch said:
I think the question was '' Was there some reason you couldn't find a babysitter?''
You appear to have ignored the question in favour of trotting out the usual excuses people trot out when asked why they left their children unattended.
The fact that you are making these excuses at all is an acknowledgement that you were in the wrong.
Nope, no babysitters. Spanish countryside. Small hotel, no spare staff, and all total strangers to us and the child. We asked, but they said, sorry, can't help. You appear to have ignored the question in favour of trotting out the usual excuses people trot out when asked why they left their children unattended.
The fact that you are making these excuses at all is an acknowledgement that you were in the wrong.
So, now kindly answer me, if you will: do you sleep with your eyes open next to your children? If not, by your own measure you are unfit to be a parent and must hand yourself in to social services. I am not sure that you have really thought this one through.
No-one suggested it is necessary, possible or desirable to sit next to one's child around the clock watching them sleep. So do try to stick to the argument, and not derail the discussion, there's a good chap.
If you inquired about babysitters and were told none were available, why didn't you make other arrangements? Because it really does seem that you and your wife regarded the safety of your daughter as being secondary to your dining preferences.
Mermaid said:
Breadvan72 said:
...but why drag poor old PH in?
PH can look after itself, and has done long before any of us came to the scene.rover 623gsi said:
a few years ago - and overlapping with the disappearance of MM - my wife worked nights. She did this for about five year. It suited us because we had two young kids and her working nights meant we incurred no childcare costs because I was there to look after them.
Every now and then, late of an evening, I would go to make myself a coffee, or some toast and would find that we had run out of milk, or bread or whatever. I live less than half a mile away from a late night convenience store but not once did ever go out and leave the kids alone even though it would only have taken me a few minutes. The reason I didn't do it wasn't because I was worried about the kids being abducted, nor was I especially worried that the house would catch fire - I just didnt' do it because I believe fundamentaly that it was 'wrong' to leave two young very children alone in the house.
Occasionally my daughter used to wake up having nightmares - I was always there for her.
Does that make me a perfect parent? Certainly not, but I have always found it insulting that the McCanns claim that what they did was acceptable behaviour and their oft-repeated suggestion that it is common practive is an insult to the vast majority of parents who wouldn't dream of looking after their children with the same nonchalant carefree approach taken by Mr and Mrs McCann.
Agreed.Every now and then, late of an evening, I would go to make myself a coffee, or some toast and would find that we had run out of milk, or bread or whatever. I live less than half a mile away from a late night convenience store but not once did ever go out and leave the kids alone even though it would only have taken me a few minutes. The reason I didn't do it wasn't because I was worried about the kids being abducted, nor was I especially worried that the house would catch fire - I just didnt' do it because I believe fundamentaly that it was 'wrong' to leave two young very children alone in the house.
Occasionally my daughter used to wake up having nightmares - I was always there for her.
Does that make me a perfect parent? Certainly not, but I have always found it insulting that the McCanns claim that what they did was acceptable behaviour and their oft-repeated suggestion that it is common practive is an insult to the vast majority of parents who wouldn't dream of looking after their children with the same nonchalant carefree approach taken by Mr and Mrs McCann.
Edited by rover 623gsi on Sunday 24th February 10:56
For me, it falls into that group of things one just does not do. Like driving over the limit, or without a seatbelt.
Gene Vincent said:
TheSnitch said:
Just a quick aside to the ''exaggerated risk, that wouldn't happen'' brigade.
If the McCanns are telling the truth, it clearly DID happen, didn't it?
They left their children alone to stroll to the restaurant for dinner, and now a child is gone.
If you get behind the wheel and don't bother doing up your seatbelt, it doesn't increase your likelihood of having a crash. That remains a rare event. But it does mean that in the event of something going wrong, and you having a crash, you are likely to be completely screwed.
And that's the point about leaving your kids home alone. if something does go wrong, and you are not there, all the ''we were only 80 yards away/gone for half an hour/in a gated community'' excuses are not going to bring your kid back.
You have (unwittingly) outlined exactly what a mind will conjure up from not taking due regard to the probability of anything happening at all, you compound the 'madness' by comparing an exceptionally rare event to a fairly common event as if that makes sense.If the McCanns are telling the truth, it clearly DID happen, didn't it?
They left their children alone to stroll to the restaurant for dinner, and now a child is gone.
If you get behind the wheel and don't bother doing up your seatbelt, it doesn't increase your likelihood of having a crash. That remains a rare event. But it does mean that in the event of something going wrong, and you having a crash, you are likely to be completely screwed.
And that's the point about leaving your kids home alone. if something does go wrong, and you are not there, all the ''we were only 80 yards away/gone for half an hour/in a gated community'' excuses are not going to bring your kid back.
Until you gain control of your imagination and the learn to assess risk correctly you will continue to expound this exaggerated fear.
Do you really feel it necessary to punctuate all your posts with personal abuse? If you did so in the real world, the way you do on here, I am quite sure every trip to the pub would ultimately result in the need for extensive dental work.
Which I guess is why you do it on here.....
Snitch, I am entirely comfortable with my parenting decision. I would do the same again if I had another two year old. Tell me about the approved Saferty-Nazi drill for the house with the big garden?
OMFG, my eight year old (ex two year old, who has somehow survived my negligent parenting, so far) spent last night at a Brownie Sleepover attended by about a billion Brownies and about three overwhelmed adult staff. They had an actual campfire, using actual flames!!!!!!!!!!!!. I shall dob myself in to the NSPCC immediately she returns.
OMFFG, a girl died on a school ski trip by falling from a chairlift. Sue everybody!!!!! Ban all school ski trips!!!!!!!!
Please have a think about what GV is saying.
OMFG, my eight year old (ex two year old, who has somehow survived my negligent parenting, so far) spent last night at a Brownie Sleepover attended by about a billion Brownies and about three overwhelmed adult staff. They had an actual campfire, using actual flames!!!!!!!!!!!!. I shall dob myself in to the NSPCC immediately she returns.
OMFFG, a girl died on a school ski trip by falling from a chairlift. Sue everybody!!!!! Ban all school ski trips!!!!!!!!
Please have a think about what GV is saying.
TheSnitch said:
Gene Vincent said:
TheSnitch said:
Just a quick aside to the ''exaggerated risk, that wouldn't happen'' brigade.
If the McCanns are telling the truth, it clearly DID happen, didn't it?
They left their children alone to stroll to the restaurant for dinner, and now a child is gone.
If you get behind the wheel and don't bother doing up your seatbelt, it doesn't increase your likelihood of having a crash. That remains a rare event. But it does mean that in the event of something going wrong, and you having a crash, you are likely to be completely screwed.
And that's the point about leaving your kids home alone. if something does go wrong, and you are not there, all the ''we were only 80 yards away/gone for half an hour/in a gated community'' excuses are not going to bring your kid back.
You have (unwittingly) outlined exactly what a mind will conjure up from not taking due regard to the probability of anything happening at all, you compound the 'madness' by comparing an exceptionally rare event to a fairly common event as if that makes sense.If the McCanns are telling the truth, it clearly DID happen, didn't it?
They left their children alone to stroll to the restaurant for dinner, and now a child is gone.
If you get behind the wheel and don't bother doing up your seatbelt, it doesn't increase your likelihood of having a crash. That remains a rare event. But it does mean that in the event of something going wrong, and you having a crash, you are likely to be completely screwed.
And that's the point about leaving your kids home alone. if something does go wrong, and you are not there, all the ''we were only 80 yards away/gone for half an hour/in a gated community'' excuses are not going to bring your kid back.
Until you gain control of your imagination and the learn to assess risk correctly you will continue to expound this exaggerated fear.
Do you really feel it necessary to punctuate all your posts with personal abuse? If you did so in the real world, the way you do on here, I am quite sure every trip to the pub would ultimately result in the need for extensive dental work.
Which I guess is why you do it on here.....
I have never ever left my daughter alone in the house, she now sleeps in her own room but I have a set up a camera and monitor so I can check up on her, the camera has a microphone so I can hear her clearly, if she wakes or sneezes or coughs I can see what is going on without disturbing her. I sleep witht he monitor switched on next to my bed, I am a light sleeper anyway and only sleep for around 6 hours a night.
I am not going anywhere on holiday until she is at least 5, meals would be taken as a family and if she was in bed in the apartment/villa then my wife and I would be either in the place too or out on the balcony reading, one of us would not be drinking.
I value my child above and beyond anything else in the world, any accident or incident that occurred on my watch would be inexcusable so I plan ahead and make sure we can give care 100% of the time.
The above is my choice, I understand that not everyone has the energy to commit 100% to the task but with a child there is so much that can go wrong so quickly you really need to be utterly on your toes or they hurt themselves/die/go missing.
I am not going anywhere on holiday until she is at least 5, meals would be taken as a family and if she was in bed in the apartment/villa then my wife and I would be either in the place too or out on the balcony reading, one of us would not be drinking.
I value my child above and beyond anything else in the world, any accident or incident that occurred on my watch would be inexcusable so I plan ahead and make sure we can give care 100% of the time.
The above is my choice, I understand that not everyone has the energy to commit 100% to the task but with a child there is so much that can go wrong so quickly you really need to be utterly on your toes or they hurt themselves/die/go missing.
Breadvan72 said:
Snitch, I am entirely comfortable with my parenting decision. I would do the same again if I had another two year old. Tell me about the approved Saferty-Nazi drill for the house with the big garden?
OMFG, my eight year old (ex two year old, who has somehow survived my negligent parenting, so far) spent last night at a Brownie Sleepover attended by about a billion Brownies and about three overwhelmed adult staff. They had an actual campfire, using actual flames!!!!!!!!!!!!. I shall dob myself in to the NSPCC immediately she returns.
OMFFG, a girl died on a school ski trip by falling from a chairlift. Sue everybody!!!!! Ban all school ski trips!!!!!!!!
PLease have a think about what GV is saying.
Oh dear, you are becoming a bit hysterical now. Calm yourself down. OMFG, my eight year old (ex two year old, who has somehow survived my negligent parenting, so far) spent last night at a Brownie Sleepover attended by about a billion Brownies and about three overwhelmed adult staff. They had an actual campfire, using actual flames!!!!!!!!!!!!. I shall dob myself in to the NSPCC immediately she returns.
OMFFG, a girl died on a school ski trip by falling from a chairlift. Sue everybody!!!!! Ban all school ski trips!!!!!!!!
PLease have a think about what GV is saying.
Gene Vincent said:
You have (unwittingly) outlined exactly what a mind will conjure up from not taking due regard to the probability of anything happening at all, you compound the 'madness' by comparing an exceptionally rare event to a fairly common event as if that makes sense.
Until you gain control of your imagination and the learn to assess risk correctly you will continue to expound this exaggerated fear.
You are totally right.Until you gain control of your imagination and the learn to assess risk correctly you will continue to expound this exaggerated fear.
If people did this properly they'd never jump in their car to get a National Lottery ticket, as they'd know that there's actually more chance of them dying during the trip, and or by the weekend than winning the lottery at the weekend.
As a thought process, based on statistics, how would everyone assess the following odds and risks. The scenario is a hypothetical holiday destination with your child locked in the hotel room 80m away, with you checking every 30 mins:
What order would you put these in:
1) That your child will be abducted.
2) That your child will be murdered in their room.
3) That your child will die in an accident.
4) That your child will die of an illness.
5) That your child will die of 'natural causes' - an known or unknown defect.
6) That your child will escape from the room and die.
Breadvan72 said:
True, no doubt, but PH does ask us to follow some rules. One rule is: don't post material that is defamatory of others. Note that the allegation that there were grounds to suspect the McCanns of murder resulted in large newspaper groups with expert lawyers conceding libel and paying big damages. Mr Bennett made the same concession. Motorvator had made an allegation that is close to that. He says that the McCanns are murder suspects. Free legal advice: that is actionable. Motorvator is free to say that in the wider world, and he might or might not be sued for it, but by doing so here he infringes the rules of the club that we all joined when we registered to post in this forum.
I have never believed the McCanns murdered their daughter, but it has never been ruled out - all possibilities remain open.And the Express did what most papers do when threatened by Carter Ruck - they agreed to an out-of-court settlement.
and on that note, I think it is a shame (though I'm not surprised) that this statement by Express report David Pilditch to the Leveson Inquiry was never given much coverage in the British media.
24. It was only months later, in July 2008 that Portugal’s Attorney General formally closed the investigation into Madeleine McCann’s disappearance. Under the Portuguese system, the authorities released the official police file - more than 10,000 documents including photographs, official reports and witness statements including those of the McCanns. Through the release of those documents and subsequent legal actions in Portugal it is now a matter of public record that the reports I was writing between September 2007 and January 2008 were truthful and accurate.
MOTORVATOR said:
.... it appears to be your position that it should be left and not open for discussion.
....
That is most emphatically not my position. FWIW, I am a First Amendment purist and think that English libel law mostly sucks, but it is what it is. The Sacred Thread here had strayed beyond discussion, and exposed PH to risk. The Mods have said that they will restore it for discussion after the risky bits have been removed. ....
I have no doubt that the McCanns blame themselves for not locking the door or otherwise taking more care, but so would any parent who had made that mistake, and now faces a brutal life sentence of pain because of it. There is a call for common human decency here: leave them alone to grieve.
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