McCanns - man who accused them gets jail sentence
Discussion
Getragdogleg said:
I have never ever left my daughter alone in the house, she now sleeps in her own room but I have a set up a camera and monitor so I can check up on her, the camera has a microphone so I can hear her clearly, if she wakes or sneezes or coughs I can see what is going on without disturbing her. I sleep witht he monitor switched on next to my bed, I am a light sleeper anyway and only sleep for around 6 hours a night.
I am not going anywhere on holiday until she is at least 5, meals would be taken as a family and if she was in bed in the apartment/villa then my wife and I would be either in the place too or out on the balcony reading, one of us would not be drinking.
I value my child above and beyond anything else in the world, any accident or incident that occurred on my watch would be inexcusable so I plan ahead and make sure we can give care 100% of the time.
The above is my choice, I understand that not everyone has the energy to commit 100% to the task but with a child there is so much that can go wrong so quickly you really need to be utterly on your toes or they hurt themselves/die/go missing.
The instinct to care for and protect our young is innate in humans. At a basic level it ensures the continuation of our species.I am not going anywhere on holiday until she is at least 5, meals would be taken as a family and if she was in bed in the apartment/villa then my wife and I would be either in the place too or out on the balcony reading, one of us would not be drinking.
I value my child above and beyond anything else in the world, any accident or incident that occurred on my watch would be inexcusable so I plan ahead and make sure we can give care 100% of the time.
The above is my choice, I understand that not everyone has the energy to commit 100% to the task but with a child there is so much that can go wrong so quickly you really need to be utterly on your toes or they hurt themselves/die/go missing.
Of course, in the case of certain individuals it can be overcome by the lure of a decent dinner and the cheeky house red.....
Breadvan72 said:
True, no doubt, but PH does ask us to follow some rules. One rule is: don't post material that is defamatory of others. Note that the allegation that there were grounds to suspect the McCanns of murder resulted in large newspaper groups with expert lawyers conceding libel and paying big damages. Mr Bennett made the same concession. Motorvator had made an allegation that is close to that. He says that the McCanns are murder suspects. Free legal advice: that is actionable. Motorvator is free to say that in the wider world, and he might or might not be sued for it, but by doing so here he infringes the rules of the club that we all joined when we registered to post in this forum.
It's interesting that you find my statements actionable. Did the case suddenly get solved whilst I was out of the room?It is still being investigated and will be until satisfactory conclusion as to events occurs. Those investigating will need to contemplate all possibilities one of will be that a murder has occurred. Or of course an accidental death which is being covered up or an abduction or even sale of the child.
They all remain possibilities until factually discounted.
If it were me in the either of the McCanns position I would welcome that speculation until such time as I had an answer.
TheSnitch said:
Breadvan72 said:
Snitch, I am entirely comfortable with my parenting decision. I would do the same again if I had another two year old. Tell me about the approved Saferty-Nazi drill for the house with the big garden?
OMFG, my eight year old (ex two year old, who has somehow survived my negligent parenting, so far) spent last night at a Brownie Sleepover attended by about a billion Brownies and about three overwhelmed adult staff. They had an actual campfire, using actual flames!!!!!!!!!!!!. I shall dob myself in to the NSPCC immediately she returns.
OMFFG, a girl died on a school ski trip by falling from a chairlift. Sue everybody!!!!! Ban all school ski trips!!!!!!!!
PLease have a think about what GV is saying.
Oh dear, you are becoming a bit hysterical now. Calm yourself down. OMFG, my eight year old (ex two year old, who has somehow survived my negligent parenting, so far) spent last night at a Brownie Sleepover attended by about a billion Brownies and about three overwhelmed adult staff. They had an actual campfire, using actual flames!!!!!!!!!!!!. I shall dob myself in to the NSPCC immediately she returns.
OMFFG, a girl died on a school ski trip by falling from a chairlift. Sue everybody!!!!! Ban all school ski trips!!!!!!!!
PLease have a think about what GV is saying.
Being serious for a moment, there is much good stuff written about risk, and those who have succumbed to the modern zero risk culture could maybe free their minds a bit by reading it.
MOTORVATOR said:
... It's interesting that you find my statements actionable....
I find nothing, as I am not a judge or a jury. I merely offer you my free and expert opinion that your words are actionable. I don't make the legal rules, and think that some (not all) of those legal rules are daft, but I know how they work in practice. JustinP1 said:
Gene Vincent said:
You have (unwittingly) outlined exactly what a mind will conjure up from not taking due regard to the probability of anything happening at all, you compound the 'madness' by comparing an exceptionally rare event to a fairly common event as if that makes sense.
Until you gain control of your imagination and the learn to assess risk correctly you will continue to expound this exaggerated fear.
You are totally right.Until you gain control of your imagination and the learn to assess risk correctly you will continue to expound this exaggerated fear.
If people did this properly they'd never jump in their car to get a National Lottery ticket, as they'd know that there's actually more chance of them dying during the trip, and or by the weekend than winning the lottery at the weekend.
As a thought process, based on statistics, how would everyone assess the following odds and risks. The scenario is a hypothetical holiday destination with your child locked in the hotel room 80m away, with you checking every 30 mins:
What order would you put these in:
1) That your child will be abducted.
2) That your child will be murdered in their room.
3) That your child will die in an accident.
4) That your child will die of an illness.
5) That your child will die of 'natural causes' - an known or unknown defect.
6) That your child will escape from the room and die.
The same applies to your 6 scenarios, it has no regard to preparation for events etc.
Proper risk assessment does require a fair degree of thinking and if you are short on that commodity then you opt for the two extremes I've mentioned previously, the NSPCC target for the unthinking, lazy and risk blind and the opposite end of that spectrum, extreme caution almost to the point of paranoia.
That word 'paranoia' is really the correct term for the overtly over-cautious.
Breadvan72 said:
TheSnitch said:
Breadvan72 said:
Snitch, I am entirely comfortable with my parenting decision. I would do the same again if I had another two year old. Tell me about the approved Saferty-Nazi drill for the house with the big garden?
OMFG, my eight year old (ex two year old, who has somehow survived my negligent parenting, so far) spent last night at a Brownie Sleepover attended by about a billion Brownies and about three overwhelmed adult staff. They had an actual campfire, using actual flames!!!!!!!!!!!!. I shall dob myself in to the NSPCC immediately she returns.
OMFFG, a girl died on a school ski trip by falling from a chairlift. Sue everybody!!!!! Ban all school ski trips!!!!!!!!
PLease have a think about what GV is saying.
Oh dear, you are becoming a bit hysterical now. Calm yourself down. OMFG, my eight year old (ex two year old, who has somehow survived my negligent parenting, so far) spent last night at a Brownie Sleepover attended by about a billion Brownies and about three overwhelmed adult staff. They had an actual campfire, using actual flames!!!!!!!!!!!!. I shall dob myself in to the NSPCC immediately she returns.
OMFFG, a girl died on a school ski trip by falling from a chairlift. Sue everybody!!!!! Ban all school ski trips!!!!!!!!
PLease have a think about what GV is saying.
However, those actions conpletely contravene the advice given by both child welfare organizations and the UK government.
As I am sure you are aware, there is no legal minimum age in the UK below which it is considered unlawful to leave a child home alone, but if doing so exposes them to harm them one is liable to prosecution.
So - thankfully nothing happened to your child on that occasion, But if it had, and you weren't there to deal with it, then would you have exposed her to harm, and what would your defence have been in court?
Breadvan72 said:
Mermaid said:
Breadvan72 said:
...but why drag poor old PH in?
PH can look after itself, and has done long before any of us came to the scene.
Or what else happened?Some comments are made in jest (check the Oscar/Dewani./Pope/Harry thread), not malice (you said you had not read the whole McCann thread). It's about context too. But what would the McCanns make of the following comment if they did not like you & you had money.?
"Yesterday (20:09)
GV, Those murdering bds! Offing their kid and fibbing about it I can forgive. Hey, we've all done it; but no fker touches my shed"
The original thread had some issues, but not that many and I suspect you will find as many issues on many other threads you have chosen not to report. PH's (motoring forum primarily) is a good forum to display your legal knowledge, but why be selective?
Enjoy the rest of the week-end
Getragdogleg said:
I have never ever left my daughter alone in the house, she now sleeps in her own room but I have a set up a camera and monitor so I can check up on her, the camera has a microphone so I can hear her clearly, if she wakes or sneezes or coughs I can see what is going on without disturbing her. I sleep witht he monitor switched on next to my bed, I am a light sleeper anyway and only sleep for around 6 hours a night.
I am not going anywhere on holiday until she is at least 5, meals would be taken as a family and if she was in bed in the apartment/villa then my wife and I would be either in the place too or out on the balcony reading, one of us would not be drinking.
I value my child above and beyond anything else in the world, any accident or incident that occurred on my watch would be inexcusable so I plan ahead and make sure we can give care 100% of the time.
The above is my choice, I understand that not everyone has the energy to commit 100% to the task but with a child there is so much that can go wrong so quickly you really need to be utterly on your toes or they hurt themselves/die/go missing.
If I may say so, that is a pretty fine exposition of paranoia.I am not going anywhere on holiday until she is at least 5, meals would be taken as a family and if she was in bed in the apartment/villa then my wife and I would be either in the place too or out on the balcony reading, one of us would not be drinking.
I value my child above and beyond anything else in the world, any accident or incident that occurred on my watch would be inexcusable so I plan ahead and make sure we can give care 100% of the time.
The above is my choice, I understand that not everyone has the energy to commit 100% to the task but with a child there is so much that can go wrong so quickly you really need to be utterly on your toes or they hurt themselves/die/go missing.
I am very interested in the subjects of risk and of how events happen. This is partly because of my job, but mainly because of an interest in history. I also fly and do ski mountaineering as hobbies, and they are all about constant risk evaluation and the application of informed buy sometimes rapid judgment to potentially lethal situations. I wish that I had the time and money to do scuba diving properly, as that's a game that places you in the constant immediate presence of death, and is very fascinating as a result. Snitch, please think over GV's points, and maybe do some reading on the subject. There is no Book of Rules that covers every situation.
Breadvan72 said:
MOTORVATOR said:
... It's interesting that you find my statements actionable....
I find nothing, as I am not a judge or a jury. I merely offer you my free and expert opinion that your words are actionable. I don't make the legal rules, and think that some (not all) of those legal rules are daft, but I know how they work in practice. Merely stated the fact that within this investigation the possibility has not been ruled out. As I understand it that suspicion may even have been reinforced by the McCanns actions in the early days.
Do you have sufficient evidence to discount it completely? And if not does it remain a possibility that should continue to be considered in investigation?
To suggest that a pair of parents should be regarded as suspects in the murder of their child is actionable, especially when those parents have been investigated by police and prosecutors who have concluded that there is no evidence that the parents have committed a crime. Have a look at Lewis v Daily Telegraph. I am merely offering the opinion of one lawyer with some practical experience of libel cases. Another lawyer with similar or greater experience might disagree, and no one ever has to take any advice, whether free or paid for.
Big newspapers have lawyers who are at least equal in ability and forcefulness to those at Carter Ruck, and do not roll over unless they are advised to.
Big newspapers have lawyers who are at least equal in ability and forcefulness to those at Carter Ruck, and do not roll over unless they are advised to.
It should be pointed out that if MM died in the apartment it is still very unlikely that she died there as a result of murder, or even manslaughter. If she did die there, the most likely cause would be an accident.
There are many people who believe she may well have died in the apartment, but very very few of them think murder was involved.
There are many people who believe she may well have died in the apartment, but very very few of them think murder was involved.
PS: M, your post would have to be read and construed in full, but the words that might especially draw the eye of a claimant's layer would be these words:-
I add that your words are relatively mild, compared to much of the stuff out there, and they may contain their own antidote. GV and I disagreed vehemently with one another on the subject of internal antidote in the context of Mrs Bercow's flighty Tweet a few weeks ago, so please look about 30 (wild guess) pages back on the Savile thread if you want to see the arguments, as I CBA to repeat them here.
MOTORVATOR said:
Are the Mcanns murderers? Well I agree with the principle of innocent until till proved guilty but also state that until we know what happened to this little girl or evidence of satisfactory discounting evidence is found the parents are murder suspects.
Note also that words must be construed in context, and that includes the historical context relevant to this case. I add that your words are relatively mild, compared to much of the stuff out there, and they may contain their own antidote. GV and I disagreed vehemently with one another on the subject of internal antidote in the context of Mrs Bercow's flighty Tweet a few weeks ago, so please look about 30 (wild guess) pages back on the Savile thread if you want to see the arguments, as I CBA to repeat them here.
Breadvan72 said:
I am very interested in the subjects of risk and of how events happen. This is partly because of my job, but mainly because of an interest in history. I also fly and do ski mountaineering as hobbies, and they are all about constant risk evaluation and the application of informed buy sometimes rapid judgment to potentially lethal situations. I wish that I had the time and money to do scuba diving properly, as that's a game that places you in the constant immediate presence of death, and is very fascinating as a result. Snitch, please think over GV's points, and maybe do some reading on the subject. There is no Book of Rules that covers every situation.
GV has yet to make any points worth considering, so you can drop your tag team approach.It's quite clear that you are aware that what you did in leaving your child alone placed her at risk. For all your protestations, you have still yet to explain why your dinner was more important than your child's safety.
MOTORVATOR said:
Would I be concerned that the wife and I can't have a meal on our own on holiday because the kids get in the way. No, strangely the holiday to me would be more about spending time with my kids which I miss when working.
Agreed, especially in Portugal, all the local portuguese families take their young kids to the cafes in the evening, often until quite late. It's a very child friendly place - much more so than the UK.TheSnitch said:
Breadvan72 said:
I am very interested in the subjects of risk and of how events happen. This is partly because of my job, but mainly because of an interest in history. I also fly and do ski mountaineering as hobbies, and they are all about constant risk evaluation and the application of informed buy sometimes rapid judgment to potentially lethal situations. I wish that I had the time and money to do scuba diving properly, as that's a game that places you in the constant immediate presence of death, and is very fascinating as a result. Snitch, please think over GV's points, and maybe do some reading on the subject. There is no Book of Rules that covers every situation.
GV has yet to make any points worth considering, so you can drop your tag team approach.It's quite clear that you are aware that what you did in leaving your child alone placed her at risk. For all your protestations, you have still yet to explain why your dinner was more important than your child's safety.
The mounting hysteria in your posts ("you have still yet to explain why your dinner was more important than your child's safety.") are testament to just how deep risk aversion has penetrated your psyche.
My child was at no greater risk that she would have been at home if I happened to be in my garage or my garden. In fact, the risk was lower. I evaluated the risk, and accepted it. I would do the same today. It is a pity that you appear to be closing your mind to GV's well reasoned arguments, and taking refuge in what a one size fits all guide book says.
My daughter has been coming with me to restaurants since she was aged zero, but on that evening she was knackered from dangerously splashing in the pool and dangerously touching actual disease ridden donkeys and throwing an actual dangerous ball, and other reckless stuff, so she was kipping at dinner time.
Mermaid, I decided nothing for PH. I am just a punter here, with no influence on the Mods. I raised for discussion the question of whether the Maddie thread had gone off on one. The Mods decide what happens to any thread.
Anyway, look what has happened? Now we have our very own brand new and shiny Maddie thread (poor Mr Bennett has long ago been forgotten and been left to rot in suspended jail). Fill yer boots!
Now I feel all guilty about Mr Bennett, as this thread is supposed to be about him, so I will say that I wonder if this time he really will keep to his promise and avoid the slammer. The Judge said that Mr Bennett's first apology had been insincere, but accepted that now he is sincere in saying sorry for breaking his promise, and won't do it again.
My daughter has been coming with me to restaurants since she was aged zero, but on that evening she was knackered from dangerously splashing in the pool and dangerously touching actual disease ridden donkeys and throwing an actual dangerous ball, and other reckless stuff, so she was kipping at dinner time.
Mermaid, I decided nothing for PH. I am just a punter here, with no influence on the Mods. I raised for discussion the question of whether the Maddie thread had gone off on one. The Mods decide what happens to any thread.
Anyway, look what has happened? Now we have our very own brand new and shiny Maddie thread (poor Mr Bennett has long ago been forgotten and been left to rot in suspended jail). Fill yer boots!
Now I feel all guilty about Mr Bennett, as this thread is supposed to be about him, so I will say that I wonder if this time he really will keep to his promise and avoid the slammer. The Judge said that Mr Bennett's first apology had been insincere, but accepted that now he is sincere in saying sorry for breaking his promise, and won't do it again.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 24th February 12:08
TheSnitch said:
The instinct to care for and protect our young is innate in humans. At a basic level it ensures the continuation of our species.
Of course, in the case of certain individuals it can be overcome by the lure of a decent dinner and the cheeky house red.....
Mmmmm om nom nom! Tapas and sangria! Of course, in the case of certain individuals it can be overcome by the lure of a decent dinner and the cheeky house red.....
You forgot to add: '... and then swinging and devil worship!'
Of course it often is, but they take a view on whether or not they can win. I have acted for a couple of large media organisations facing libel claims, and they do not always roll over. Sometime they take the view that the story is an important one, and they stand behind their journalists. Some media organisations actually have principles, amazing as that may seem (tabloids, hardly ever). In my youth I was the Friday/Saturday night on-call lawyer for a Sunday paper, and I recall from many vigorous midnight debates in the newsroom that the editors were often courageous and principled in their decisions to publish or not publish.
jaedba2604 said:
Breadvan72 said:
Big newspapers have lawyers who are at least equal in ability and forcefulness to those at Carter Ruck, and do not roll over unless they are advised to.
Of course it often is, but they take a view on whether or not they can win. I have acted for a couple of large media organisations facing libel claims, and they do not always roll over. Sometime they take the view that the story is an important one, and they stand behind their journalists. Some media organisations actually have principles, amazing as that may seem (tabloids, hardly ever). In my youth I was the Friday/Saturday night on-call lawyer for a Sunday paper, and I recall from many vigorous midnight debates in the newsroom that the editors were often courageous and principled in their decisions to publish or not publish.
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