Maybe the PH party idea is not so crazy

[DJRC]

unrepentant said:

How often do we hear that all politicians are self serving aholes and that we need a "new party", a party of common sense etc.. It's just not practical people say, the political establishment have too big a hold on things, too much power, money and control.

Well in Italy the "Grillo five star movement", led by Beppe Grillo, a comedian who has run on a manifesto that vowed to clear out the political classes has taken around 25% of the seats in the Italian parliament!

Who knows, perhaps a party of common sense led by a charismatic leader could energise the electorate in the UK and actually win some seats?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21587123

Yes but most ppl who express political opinions on ph are complete fking morons who shouldnt be allowed to run a village hall let alone a country.

The Deej's 4th rule: Whatever a majority of ph thinks, the opposite is almost certain to be more accurate.

[ewenm]

Guam said:

Not sure thats fair, on a number of topics the PH massive has been ahead of the curve, Climate change and the Sorry mess that is the Eurozone to name but two.

Except it isn't some consensus across the PH forums, it's a few posters who feel strongly enough to put their views across on the relevant threads. There is no "PH massive". It's a great example of the silent majority. I wouldn't want to be associated with a PH Party just like I don't like being associated with any other political party. Party politics is part of the problem, so choosing another party is not a solution and no, I don't have a solution other than mostly to ignore the noises coming out of Westminster where I can.

[ewenm]

It'd help if you used the visible smilies for humour rather than the invisible ones

[einsign]

Isn't UKIP now the only genuine alternative party?

[Eric Mc]

speedy_thrills said:

I though that to but reading the policies down the side on the BBC website:
- New electoral system, based on proportional representation; halving number of MPs; end of public funding of parties.
- His MPs will only take part of their salary, and will serve a maximum two terms.
- Support for renewable energy, free internet provision.
- Voting age reduced to 16 (from 18) and 18 for the Senate (from 25).
- Referendum on leaving euro.

I might have voted for them as well given the state of Italian politics.

Italy already has a PR system.

Those policies are mostly cloud cuckoo land - or the Italian equivalent.

There is a scene in the Morcambe and Wise movie "The Intelligence men" which echoes this party - only that was SUPPOSED to be a joke.

[The Black Flash]

Eric Mc said:

Italy already has a PR system.

Those policies are mostly cloud cuckoo land - or the Italian equivalent.

There is a scene in the Morcambe and Wise movie "The Intelligence men" which echoes this party - only that was SUPPOSED to be a joke.

But what is a dissatisfied electorate to do then Eric? Vote for the status quo, even though they despise it? So nothing ever changes, no matter how corrupt and oligarchic it becomes?
All modern parties seem to be a joke to me. Few of them seem to have much of a clue, they just have history and tradition on their side.

[Eric Mc]

Things DO change - over time. The democracy we have now and the parties we have NOW, although the labels may be familiar, are very, very different to what we had 40 years ago. Now whether you consider the changes good or bad is a different matter - but the important thing is that change DOES happen and there is no need for revolution.

[unrepentant]

DJRC said:

Yes but most ppl who express political opinions on ph are complete fking morons who shouldnt be allowed to run a village hall let alone a country.

The Deej's 4th rule: Whatever a majority of ph thinks, the opposite is almost certain to be more accurate.

I wasn't actually advocating a PH party, just the idea of an alternative and how Italy has shown that a "movement" can rise up and take a huge chunk of the vote.

Obviously what I want is an Unrep party with me at the helm leading my people into a millenium of prosperity. One people, one empire, one leader. That sort of thing..........

[The Black Flash]

Eric Mc said:

Things DO change - over time. The democracy we have now and the parties we have NOW, although the labels may be familiar, are very, very different to what we had 40 years ago. Now whether you consider the changes good or bad is a different matter - but the important thing is that change DOES happen and there is no need for revolution.

So when all the parties don't represent what the people want, the answer is for them to vote for the status quo, and hope it changes in a good way over the next 40 years or so?

You say yourself that it's easier to tear down than to create. So rather than just denouncing this guy as a clown, etc, I'm interested in hearing what you think the electorate should do instead.

Surely he's done what he's "supposed" to. He didn't like what was on offer, so started his own movement, and lots of people voted for him. An amazing and unusual feat. But that's still not good enough, apparently. What's the alternative?

[vonuber]

The alternative is what we have - moribund politics.

[Eric Mc]

The Black Flash said:

Eric Mc said:

Things DO change - over time. The democracy we have now and the parties we have NOW, although the labels may be familiar, are very, very different to what we had 40 years ago. Now whether you consider the changes good or bad is a different matter - but the important thing is that change DOES happen and there is no need for revolution.

So when all the parties don't represent what the people want, the answer is for them to vote for the status quo, and hope it changes in a good way over the next 40 years or so?

You say yourself that it's easier to tear down than to create. So rather than just denouncing this guy as a clown, etc, I'm interested in hearing what you think the electorate should do instead.

Surely he's done what he's "supposed" to. He didn't like what was on offer, so started his own movement, and lots of people voted for him. An amazing and unusual feat. But that's still not good enough, apparently. What's the alternative?

I'm not the politician.

Don't stand for election unless you know what you are standing for, and not just what you are standing against.

To be honest, Italy has had chaotic government for generations and appears to function, after a fashion.

[vodkalolly]

einsign said:

Isn't UKIP now the only genuine alternative party?

I was a member of UKIP for a while. I am not sure they are the answer to any of the current problems but they are a useful lever for change in the mainstream parties. If you read about the mass interest in politics in the early part of the 20th century it is clear that lots of people were very disgruntled and politics was something large numbers participated in. I think the majority are far too comfortable now and as a consequence find politics boring. The labour party are a victim of their own success. If Kier Hardy were to be transported in time to witness the NHS and the benefit system he would probably be horrified. Yet the deprivation he fought against was diabolical. The conditions Welsh miners had to endure were just obscene and so there was a campaign for change. That motivation is what is missing. This is primarily because the politicoes make sure they don't go too far. The anti car movement is enough to make us want to kill, but we calmly accept it because so long as we can keep on having fun we just ignore it. We are mostly short of passion.

[einsign]

vodkalolly said:

einsign said:

Isn't UKIP now the only genuine alternative party?

I was a member of UKIP for a while. I am not sure they are the answer to any of the current problems but they are a useful lever for change in the mainstream parties. If you read about the mass interest in politics in the early part of the 20th century it is clear that lots of people were very disgruntled and politics was something large numbers participated in. I think the majority are far too comfortable now and as a consequence find politics boring. The labour party are a victim of their own success. If Kier Hardy were to be transported in time to witness the NHS and the benefit system he would probably be horrified. Yet the deprivation he fought against was diabolical. The conditions Welsh miners had to endure were just obscene and so there was a campaign for change. That motivation is what is missing. This is primarily because the politicoes make sure they don't go too far. The anti car movement is enough to make us want to kill, but we calmly accept it because so long as we can keep on having fun we just ignore it. We are mostly short of passion.

So yes then?

[VoziKaoFangio]

UKIP is not a real alternative to Lib Lab Con in any way, shape or form. They are not proposing to rip up the way politics works and the way the country is run, they just want to get in on the act themselves with the same schtick and and one specific policy which the others don't carry. They are essentially Tories with an "Out of the EU" policy. And that's being kind.

[Art0ir]

VoziKaoFangio said:

They are essentially Tories with an "Out of the EU" policy. And that's being kind.

Is there a secret manifesto that us mere mortal non party members don't know about? Because the one in their website is far from 21st century Tory.

[einsign]

VoziKaoFangio said:

UKIP is not a real alternative to Lib Lab Con in any way, shape or form. They are not proposing to rip up the way politics works and the way the country is run, they just want to get in on the act themselves with the same schtick and and one specific policy which the others don't carry. They are essentially Tories with an "Out of the EU" policy. And that's being kind.

You are very simply wrong I am afraid.

[vodkalolly]

VoziKaoFangio said:

UKIP is not a real alternative to Lib Lab Con in any way, shape or form. They are not proposing to rip up the way politics works and the way the country is run, they just want to get in on the act themselves with the same schtick and and one specific policy which the others don't carry. They are essentially Tories with an "Out of the EU" policy. And that's being kind.

Actually they are not all agreed on "out of the EU". Some of them are "bomb Brussels and gunboats up the Sein" and some are "renegotiate the treaties". Which despite the protests of Clegg et al unless we joing the Euro and close down the financial centre we will have to do anyway. So I guess its like most parties Nobody agrees with anybody.

[Balmoral]

Eric Mc said:

No point in setting up a party until you know what the party stands "for". This clown (and others like him) are very good at telling everybody what they are "against".

Clown is too polite a word.

He's the very essence of what he claims to be against, politicians who tell lies and make false promises to win votes.

Anti-austerity, as if it was an option?

[DJRC]

unrepentant said:

DJRC said:

Yes but most ppl who express political opinions on ph are complete fking morons who shouldnt be allowed to run a village hall let alone a country.

The Deej's 4th rule: Whatever a majority of ph thinks, the opposite is almost certain to be more accurate.

I wasn't actually advocating a PH party, just the idea of an alternative and how Italy has shown that a "movement" can rise up and take a huge chunk of the vote.

Obviously what I want is an Unrep party with me at the helm leading my people into a millenium of prosperity. One people, one empire, one leader. That sort of thing..........

Ah, you werent advocating an actual democratic party so much as an autocratic party? Jolly good then, that sort of thing is entirely acceptable, carry on State funding is on your right, just after the Straight-from-Uni-never-worked-a-day-in-the-private-sector "researchers", do please help yourself!