Drink driver suicide. ALERT: thread contains heartlessness

[Blue62]

Breadvan72 said:

Have look at the Channel 4 piece, above, which takes a rather different line, although that may be the line pursued by the journalist. The blame is placed on the fact that the boy could be held in custody for a few hours without his parents being called, and the conclusion asserted is that if not for this the boy would not have killed himself. That seems to me something of a leap of logic.

That wasn't my interpretation. If the police are obliged to inform the parents, as opposed to leaving that up to the teenager, then at least the parents would be alerted to the situation and handle accordingly, especially if their son (as seems the case) has underlying issues. If one of my kids at that age was in police custody I would want to know about it.

[dirty boy]

Terminator X said:

Suicide for anything is madness imho, nothing* is worth cutting your life short.

TX.

• [flameavoidance] apart from rare instances where people are trapped in a non working body and wish to end it all [/flameavoidance]

Nothing is worth cutting a life short for if you're thinking straight.


A good friend of mine committed suicide a couple of weeks ago. To us, we cannot comprehend what he was thinking. He had some debts, but nothing insurmountable, and he'd obviously shared that information.

He was 42 and split with a girl of 3 years on New Years day, and was under the impression he'd failed again, with that being a third longish term relationship.

He left two daughters, one 18, the other 9.

His best mate found him hanging.

Now how does a good looking bloke of 42 with two beautiful daughters, who he appeared to love to bits, think he's got nothing left in life worth carrying on for?

Doesn't make sense does it? But obviously he felt it was his only option. Madness.

[JustinP1]

Breadvan72 said:

17 year old kid arrested for driving whilst pished up. Kills self two days later. The parents appear to hold the police to blame, but it strikes me that they might also consider how their son came to be so mentally vulnerable that this, one of life's adversities, tipped him over the edge.

I don't see that he had to be any more mentally vulnerable than the average 17 year old.

The family seem 'nice' and seemingly more well off than average. The chap was maybe doing well at school, friends, a girlfriend and had a path laid out starting from going to uni, getting a job and making his family proud.

Then, because of one single mistake, *to him* that is now all gone. No-one would ever look at him the same and with a criminal record his options for success now seem curtailed.

Regardless of the reality as adults with the knowledge that you can 'bounce back' from these things, I can very much see that he felt he could not.


I also think that the process of almost being 'conditioned' as a criminal had an effect. At a similar age, although slightly older, I was accused of a driving offence I knew I was innocent of, and had the stones to opt to come to court to defend myself.

My experience was that I sat with my suit on in a waiting room full of tracksuited repeat offenders and stinking scum, and despite my suit and much more polite attitude, the court staff treated me exactly the same as them. As a waster, a criminal, a drain on society to the point that I still remember today almost doubting myself that I was not.

Social and situational conditioning can have a huge effect to your psychological state (take the Milgram or Stanford experiments for example) even if you have no insecurities whatsoever.

[The Don of Croy]

JustinP1 said:

Regardless of the reality as adults with the knowledge that you can 'bounce back' from these things, I can very much see that he felt he could not.

At seventeen I also had my first motoring offences - driving without an MOT and Tax (friends car - he assured me it was legit before we went away in it).

Although my dad could raise Cain without an excuse, and I was therefore a little circumspect in my dealings with authority, it was never the end of the world or even as big a deal as poor exam results. Even though at that time it was my first 'brush with the law'.

Everybody deals with it differently, but avoiding these trials is part of the process - and driving while under the influence in 2013 is markedly beyond what I would consider normal (father of two 20 somethings). Tragedy for the family, however.

[Terzo123]

Eric Mc said:

The strange thing is that the system is NOT consistent throughout the UK. In Northern Ireland and Scotland, a 17 year old WOULD be treated differently to a full adult. It is in England and Wales that police detention rules are different.

I think bringing the treatment in line with what happens in Northern Ireland and Scotland would not be a bad thing.

Can't speak for Ireland, but in Scotland as far as the police are concerned, once your 16, unless under supervision then you are treated as an adult.

As such your entitled to have a lawyer informed and one reasonably named person contacted on your behalf. No phone calls are allowed, unless it is a private consultation with a lawyer.

[Eric Mc]

Terzo123 said:

Eric Mc said:

The strange thing is that the system is NOT consistent throughout the UK. In Northern Ireland and Scotland, a 17 year old WOULD be treated differently to a full adult. It is in England and Wales that police detention rules are different.

I think bringing the treatment in line with what happens in Northern Ireland and Scotland would not be a bad thing.

Can't speak for Ireland, but in Scotland as far as the police are concerned, once your 16, unless under supervision then you are treated as an adult.

As such your entitled to have a lawyer informed and one reasonably named person contacted on your behalf. No phone calls are allowed, unless it is a private consultation with a lawyer.

Quoting what they were saying on Chanel 4 last night.

And your comment "one reasonably named person contacted on your behalf. No phone calls are allowed". How are you supposed to make that "one contact" - smoke signals?



And I didn't mention "Ireland" (and nor did Chanel 4), I mentioned NORTHERN Ireland, a different place and part of the UK.

[Terzo123]

Eric Mc said:

Quoting what they were saying on Chanel 4 last night.

And your comment "one reasonably named person contacted on your behalf. No phone calls are allowed". How are you supposed to make that "one contact" - smoke signals?



And I didn't mention "Ireland" (and nor did Chanel 4), I mentioned NORTHERN Ireland, a different place and part of the UK.

Easy tiger

No smoke signals required. The duty officer/bar staff contact the person for you via this new modern invention called the telephone. They are not allowed to discuss why the person is in custody, but can inform them if they will be detained in custody pending court appearance or if they will be getting released.

[Yertis]

MajorProblem said:

I'd rather see the driving age raised to 18 than have people getting off lightly with such offences.

No difference if someone runs over your family whether they are 17 or 18.

Actually - that's not a bad idea, but doesn't go far enough. Raise the driving age to say 30, and you'll massively cut accidents and congestion at a stroke. Won't affect most of us other than in positive ways.

[will_]

JustinP1 said:

Breadvan72 said:

17 year old kid arrested for driving whilst pished up. Kills self two days later. The parents appear to hold the police to blame, but it strikes me that they might also consider how their son came to be so mentally vulnerable that this, one of life's adversities, tipped him over the edge.

I don't see that he had to be any more mentally vulnerable than the average 17 year old.

The family seem 'nice' and seemingly more well off than average. The chap was maybe doing well at school, friends, a girlfriend and had a path laid out starting from going to uni, getting a job and making his family proud.

Then, because of one single mistake, *to him* that is now all gone. No-one would ever look at him the same and with a criminal record his options for success now seem curtailed.

Regardless of the reality as adults with the knowledge that you can 'bounce back' from these things, I can very much see that he felt he could not.

I also think that the process of almost being 'conditioned' as a criminal had an effect. At a similar age, although slightly older, I was accused of a driving offence I knew I was innocent of, and had the stones to opt to come to court to defend myself.

My experience was that I sat with my suit on in a waiting room full of tracksuited repeat offenders and stinking scum, and despite my suit and much more polite attitude, the court staff treated me exactly the same as them. As a waster, a criminal, a drain on society to the point that I still remember today almost doubting myself that I was not.

Social and situational conditioning can have a huge effect to your psychological state (take the Milgram or Stanford experiments for example) even if you have no insecurities whatsoever.

I entirely agree with this.

To some, a brush with the law such as this could seem to be the worst thing in the world.

As said in the Channel 4 piece, he would be treated by the court as a minor. So why should he be treated by the police as an adult? The argument for consistency (either way) is clear.

[croyde]

Robb F said:

croyde said:

Easy access to guns makes suicide easy. A real shame and a sad story.

Or tall buildings, or rope, or knives or cars or plastic bags or...

All those other options take a bit of guts but a gun is a simple off switch and virtually guaranteed pain free. I know from personal experience that if we were allowed guns like in the US for example, I would no longer be here.

[TheJimi]

Terminator X said:

Suicide for anything is madness imho, nothing* is worth cutting your life short.

TX.

• [flameavoidance] apart from rare instances where people are trapped in a non working body and wish to end it all [/flameavoidance]

On the other hand, no-one asked to be born, so if someone decides that this world holds no appeal to them and wants to check out, I struggle to find fault in that as long as they don't impact their death on anyone else (which is perhaps, easier said than done)

[Eric Mc]

Terzo123 said:

Easy tiger

No smoke signals required. The duty officer/bar staff contact the person for you via this new modern invention called the telephone. They are not allowed to discuss why the person is in custody, but can inform them if they will be detained in custody pending court appearance or if they will be getting released.

Right - so in Scotland, parents CAN be informed that their child has been taken into custody - as Channel 4 asserted?

In England and Wales that is NOT the case.

[Terzo123]

Eric Mc said:

Right - so in Scotland, parents CAN be informed that their child has been taken into custody - as Channel 4 asserted?

In England and Wales that is NOT the case.

You've got your knickers in a twist over this one Eric.

Your post which I initially quoted was factually incorrect.

In Scotland you will be treated the same as an adult when you are 16, unless as I've already mentioned you are under supervision.

As for your question above. Any child brought into custody will have their parents or guardians informed as a matter of course, with only a few exceptions to this rule.

The person in custody will not be allowed to make the phone call themselves, this goes for children and adults, unless it is for a private consultation with a lawyer. It's not like the movies.


edited to add, this means a 16 or 17 year old in Scotland, unless under supervision will only have their parents informed if they request for them to be informed. They will be asked the question as per strict procedure, but it will be down to detained/arrested person if they wish this right exercised. The parents will not be contacted as a matter of course.

Edited by Terzo123 on Wednesday 27th February 12:31

[Eric Mc]

So - can the parents of a 17 year old be notified (by whatever means) when they are taken into custody, in Scotland?

A simple Yes or No will suffice.

What has the movies got to do with anything? As I said, I am referring to last night's news report on Channel 4.

[Terzo123]

Eric Mc said:

So - can the parents of a 17 year old be notified (by whatever means) when they are taken into custody, in Scotland?

A simple Yes or No will suffice.

What has the movies got to do with anything? As I said, I am referring to last night's news report on Channel 4.

You beat my edit

The parents of a 17 year old in Scotland will only be notified if the 17 year old wishes them notified. They will, as a matter of course be asked if they wish any named, reasonable person contacted. (Note, no mention of parent) It is up to them if they wish this right exercised.

[dundarach]

His choice to drink
His choice to drive

Not whomever he crashes into, if not now then one day

Lots of us have been young and survived

His choice to end his life!

If he's old enough to drink and drive, he's old enough to be treated as an adult!

[onyx39]

dudleybloke said:

old enough to drive, old enough to take responsability.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

this.

[Eric Mc]

Terzo123 said:

You beat my edit

The parents of a 17 year old in Scotland will only be notified if the 17 year old wishes them notified. They will, as a matter of course be asked if they wish any named, reasonable person contacted. (Note, no mention of parent) It is up to them if they wish this right exercised.

And the situation in England and Wales?

[Eric Mc]

dundarach said:

His choice to drink
His choice to drive

Not whomever he crashes into, if not now then one day

Lots of us have been young and survived

His choice to end his life!

If he's old enough to drink and drive, he's old enough to be treated as an adult!

In the UK, there are many variations on the ages and which "children" can do (or not do) certain things. There are also many variations in the ages in which they are deemed to have certain responsibilities. And finally, there are also variations in how they are treated in law.

It's a very messy situation and very inconsistent.

[Terzo123]

Eric Mc said:

And the situation in England and Wales?

No idea. Why don't you google it

You stated in relation to police detention rules that "In Northern Ireland and Scotland, a 17 year old WOULD be treated differently to a full adult."

Your statement was incorrect. I'm sorry of i have upset you by pointing it that it was wrong. But it would be troublesome if anyone was to take your statement as fact.