Is it any wonder so many Kids are out of work
Discussion
Might be worth posting in this part of the forum:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&a...
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Became a mechanical engineering aprentice at the back end of last year, im a bit old to be fair at 25. However, the other apprentices are 21 and 19, so again a bit out of what i thought was the ordinary. However the majority at college are above 16 and the few 16 year olds there are the cookie cutter lazy w
kers you see in the papers being potential footballers.
I get what you mean with the lack of academic support, the college i go to has some great lecturers who have done what they're teaching for a long long time. This all changes when the full time college workers get involved, the pencil pushers and people behind closed doors. I honestly feel that some of these people should not be employed, they've created one terrible atmosphere where targets come first not the lesson and whenever a teacher is being supervised of what ever youcall it, it changes a lesson full of insight and past experience to something very cold and imensely boring with no direct relation to what you do for work.
kers you see in the papers being potential footballers.I get what you mean with the lack of academic support, the college i go to has some great lecturers who have done what they're teaching for a long long time. This all changes when the full time college workers get involved, the pencil pushers and people behind closed doors. I honestly feel that some of these people should not be employed, they've created one terrible atmosphere where targets come first not the lesson and whenever a teacher is being supervised of what ever youcall it, it changes a lesson full of insight and past experience to something very cold and imensely boring with no direct relation to what you do for work.
We've got to focus on having more and more kids pushed through university, that will in no way end up with lots of indebted and overqualified people in blue collar jobs feeling a resentful entitlement to a career that isn't there for them. Nor a lack of qualified tradesmen and a lack of respect for that as a way of earning a living.
Guam said:
Even the Folks at the job centre are increasingly frustrated by this stupidity, from where I sit, this problem will only get worse as sunset industries continue to decline and no provision exists for getting these kids into the newer industries as there is a complete abscence of any framework.
Isn't this something you could work with a local college on?Just picking a random one near me: http://www.sthelens.ac.uk/index.php?option=com_con...
Guam, why not try and be a bit proactive and contact some other similar companies and see if there is any interest in jointly drafting a frame-work / syllabus as an industry working group.
My suggestion would be to contact the professional organisation / chartered body that represents your industry and see if they are interested in supporting it. With their backing it would be easier to then approach government or academia.
It's not as hard as you might think as another PH'er and I did something similar for our industry - set up a working group and now run a conference each year, and we're currently looking at below degree level qualifications / training. All it took was an approach to our professional body and an article in our journal and now most people within the industry / discipline are members.
My suggestion would be to contact the professional organisation / chartered body that represents your industry and see if they are interested in supporting it. With their backing it would be easier to then approach government or academia.
It's not as hard as you might think as another PH'er and I did something similar for our industry - set up a working group and now run a conference each year, and we're currently looking at below degree level qualifications / training. All it took was an approach to our professional body and an article in our journal and now most people within the industry / discipline are members.
Guam said:
We can spend the next few years training them and invest significant effort and money into the excercise and they can invest themselves into it but what are they left with to show for it? They end up with the skillset but no formal recognition of the effort on their part.
Would the fact that they have secure and (presumably) well paid jobs not provide a measure of recognition?What about you 'old lags' already in the industry - how are you recognised or assessed by your competitors?
I'm not being negative, just trying to see why a certificate is necessarily the answer? If I worked for you I would be more than happy knowing my employer valued my input and rewarded me accordingly. If industry recognition is important then the 'body' or institute would be involved, no?
Failing all that, have you tried approaching some of the great and good that discuss these things in august institutions like the RSA in London? They have formulated some of these (including shorthand testing) but are now hands on running some academies in the Midlands. They have an interest in the whole education approach so might be able to put you in touch with people more appropriate to the task.
Guam said:
I dont end up with my urine boiling too often, however for a couple of years I have been exploring the possibility of creating apprenticeships for a couple of young people and take them on to train them up in what we do.
Unfortunately because we are an evolving industry and there is no formal apprenticeship scheme, there is no template or certification process to construct apprenticeships in new industries.
Construction . no problem, Vehicle repair no problem, any traditional industry no problem.
Even the Folks at the job centre are increasingly frustrated by this stupidity, from where I sit, this problem will only get worse as sunset industries continue to decline and no provision exists for getting these kids into the newer industries as there is a complete abscence of any framework.
Sorry for the rant but when you really want to try and help, but cant see any way to do this it really gets your urine superheated.
Any others on here encountered the same issues and if you overcame them how did you manage it?
By coincidence, I had someone from the local college visit me this morning to discuss the apprenticeship scheme, they seemed to be pretty flexible regarding the range of training/skills required. It would appear that we can get apprentices to train up in our particular manufacturing methods, or higher level apprentices for more project based work, it seemed straight forward enough... I'm planning on starting with two apprentices and going from there, I'll let you know how I get on.Unfortunately because we are an evolving industry and there is no formal apprenticeship scheme, there is no template or certification process to construct apprenticeships in new industries.
Construction . no problem, Vehicle repair no problem, any traditional industry no problem.
Even the Folks at the job centre are increasingly frustrated by this stupidity, from where I sit, this problem will only get worse as sunset industries continue to decline and no provision exists for getting these kids into the newer industries as there is a complete abscence of any framework.
Sorry for the rant but when you really want to try and help, but cant see any way to do this it really gets your urine superheated.
Any others on here encountered the same issues and if you overcame them how did you manage it?
Guam said:
That link FG gave me was very useful, I rang them up there is a procedure for evolving and proposing a framework, no one in Business link or the Job centre even knew about those guys, worth giving them a call.
Talk about right hand and left hand
I've been working through our local college, they seemed pretty knowledgeable. Apparently there's a £1500 payment per apprentice from the government (subject to qualifying criteria), if I get it it will be the first bit of financial assistance I've ever had, early days yet though.Talk about right hand and left hand
My 38-year-old son-in-law is more or less half-way through an 'apprenticeship'. The word, it would appear, has changed its meaning. He had to pay for the 6-months course out of his own pocket and then will work for probably a total of 18 mnths under supervision at basic wage.
There is very little support. All the arranging and placements is down to him. Not easy when you come from an entirely different discipline.
This is not the old meaning of apprenticeship, not the way I had to do it.
There is very little support. All the arranging and placements is down to him. Not easy when you come from an entirely different discipline.
This is not the old meaning of apprenticeship, not the way I had to do it.
bigandclever said:
From my position of almost complete ignorance, why not take them on as a 'junior' rather than an 'apprentice'?
because money won't be (perception of employer) hosed at them, equally they won;t have the hassle of hoop jumping for the (NVQ)training provider and/or college ...Glad you've made some progress Guam. I did something similar a few years ago, but it eventually went tits-up.
It's still something I feel very strongly about, as I have to work with the outfall of the present training pipe.
It were different in my day, eh!
Out of interest, what is your industry sector?
It's still something I feel very strongly about, as I have to work with the outfall of the present training pipe.
It were different in my day, eh!
Out of interest, what is your industry sector?
mph1977 said:
bigandclever said:
From my position of almost complete ignorance, why not take them on as a 'junior' rather than an 'apprentice'?
because money won't be (perception of employer) hosed at them, equally they won;t have the hassle of hoop jumping for the (NVQ)training provider and/or college ...You only have to pay an apprentice £2.65 an hour, but in practice you should pay at least the minimum wage for the appropriate age group.
The apprentices get 1 day per week day release, although training can be on site, so you pay 5 days and they work 4.
They get full employment rights but you can put them on an apprentice contract that doesn't guarantee a job at the end of the contract, so you have a bit of a break clause if you don't want to keep them.
Subject to certain criteria, you get a payment of £1500 per apprentice. I don't suppose the payment will be in used notes so I guess it will classed as income, I'll have to check.
I'm undecided at the moment whether to take a couple on, but I do need some more staff so I'm considering my options.
Apprenticeships and hands on practical training programs are VITAL for our countries future.
Certificates and theoretical qualifications are not. I have no comprehension of how a university degree provides any value to the majority of real world job positions, or why people are brain washed into thinking it is?
It also helps if youngsters are trained in shaving (removing bum fluff), washing, combing hair, ironing a shirt, having good manners, walking tall and looking at the people who are trying to have a conversation with you, and primarily being able to speak English fluently and clearly!!
Certificates and theoretical qualifications are not. I have no comprehension of how a university degree provides any value to the majority of real world job positions, or why people are brain washed into thinking it is?
It also helps if youngsters are trained in shaving (removing bum fluff), washing, combing hair, ironing a shirt, having good manners, walking tall and looking at the people who are trying to have a conversation with you, and primarily being able to speak English fluently and clearly!!
Edited by einsign on Thursday 28th February 20:06
Guam said:
bigandclever said:
From my position of almost complete ignorance, why not take them on as a 'junior' rather than an 'apprentice'?
Because I want to certify these kids and give them something of value, what we are doing is very much a "skill" and no structure exists to enable us to produce someone "skilled" no way of setting modules and getting them the formal aspects that an apprenticeship would bring.We can spend the next few years training them and invest significant effort and money into the excercise and they can invest themselves into it but what are they left with to show for it? They end up with the skillset but no formal recognition of the effort on their part.
It is a common problem that the job centre acknowledges, all they have is "work experience" placements or formal apprenticeship placement schemes where there is a recognised apprenticeship program. This latter helps with streamlining the recruitment process and weeding down the numbers, finally the Kid knows he/she will be with us for some years so motivation is likely to be higher imho.
If you train people up and give them a solid qualification, many of them will then fairly rapidly trundle off in search of better pay at another employer, and said employers will happily offer them the incentives, as it avoids them having to pay to train people up.
If, on the other hand, you train people up to generate wealth for your company whilst having a good career themselves in the process, yet it doesn't actually give them any sort of marketable qualification, they're more likely to stay working for you?
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