Joan Rivers, Klum and the Holocaust...
Discussion
DJRC said:
GuitarTech said:
matchmaker said:
Klum does look rather hot! 
All right if you lik'em dumb: I've known intelligenter house bricks, at times she has trouble speaking grammaticly-correct German. I can imagine she goes well though, as long as she doesn't talk...
thehawk said:
TheHeretic said:
Folks know her parents are Jewish, right?
The Jews are often the first to make jokes about Hitler and that period (her comment could have come from Mel Brooks) - it's only others who get all offended.outrage piece in DM said:
ADL leader Abraham Foxman said: 'Of all people, Joan Rivers should know better. This remark is so vulgar and offensive to Jews and Holocaust survivors, and indeed to all Americans, that we cannot believe it made it to the airwaves.
Really?Pothole said:
thehawk said:
TheHeretic said:
Folks know her parents are Jewish, right?
The Jews are often the first to make jokes about Hitler and that period (her comment could have come from Mel Brooks) - it's only others who get all offended.outrage piece in DM said:
ADL leader Abraham Foxman said: 'Of all people, Joan Rivers should know better. This remark is so vulgar and offensive to Jews and Holocaust survivors, and indeed to all Americans, that we cannot believe it made it to the airwaves.
Really?Aren't people weird. If anyone should be offended it is Germans. It is Rivers bringing up the Holocaust to attack them. I feel certain there is, somewhere, a German who was indeed involved in the extermination camps but Given the age he must be he's beyond feeling blame. For the rest of the German nation, they had nothing to do with it, any more than I had anything to do with the slave trade.
WWII is nowa days when the allies fought against the nazi hordes. No one mentions Germans it appears. And I can see the reason for that. My father had a German friend 10 years or so after the war ended.
Unless we want to end up with some tribal battle, like Northern Ireland or some nutty Scot suggesting independence from the UK because of Culloden then we need to accept that most countries have managed to do some atrocious things some time in history. Let's learn from them.
WWII is nowa days when the allies fought against the nazi hordes. No one mentions Germans it appears. And I can see the reason for that. My father had a German friend 10 years or so after the war ended.
Unless we want to end up with some tribal battle, like Northern Ireland or some nutty Scot suggesting independence from the UK because of Culloden then we need to accept that most countries have managed to do some atrocious things some time in history. Let's learn from them.
Derek Smith said:
WWII is nowa days when the allies fought against the nazi hordes. No one mentions Germans it appears. And I can see the reason for that. My father had a German friend 10 years or so after the war ended.
Which is of course gravely wrong, the Nazis were Germans, most Germans supported the Nazis and their views (as did a lot of pre war British it has to be said) The joke is not anti-Semitic for it reminds us that the bodies of the Jews were burnt by the Germans. Maybe some Jews don't think a joke with with that reference is appropriate but it's not anti semitic per se. Personally i think it's very funny and only wish I'd heard her say it rather than read it. Joan Rivers is scandalously funny, she can get away with anything.
thehawk said:
Derek Smith said:
WWII is nowa days when the allies fought against the nazi hordes. No one mentions Germans it appears. And I can see the reason for that. My father had a German friend 10 years or so after the war ended.
Which is of course gravely wrong, the Nazis were Germans, most Germans supported the Nazis and their views (as did a lot of pre war British it has to be said) If we carry on like that then there's an awful lot of history, and an awful lot of hatred that might come out.
thehawk said:
Which is of course gravely wrong, the Nazis were Germans, most Germans supported the Nazis and their views (as did a lot of pre war British it has to be said)
Including, it seems, some of the German royal family ensconced in Buckingham Palace who had conveniently changed their last name from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor during WW1 !!Derek Smith said:
If I read your intentions correctly you miss the point. I think the intent is to move away from vilifying a nation for something which happened before the vast majority of them were born. It's like suggesting the death of the Boer families was somehow my fault. Should I go back to the Normans and suggest that their enslavement of my ancestors (on the assumption I'm not Norman of course) makes everyone from that part of France, not to mention the rest of the Norse, still evil and I should hate them.
If we carry on like that then there's an awful lot of history, and an awful lot of hatred that might come out.
Of course people who were not involved or born should not carry the burden of blame, but many Germans used the excuse that we didn't know what was going on etc., when plainly that was not the truth. It's often seen as an excuse for the Germans involved not to accept responsibility for the actions their nation tool.If we carry on like that then there's an awful lot of history, and an awful lot of hatred that might come out.
Of course many politicians and groups around the world do disagree with you on bringing up the past - apologising for slavery, the Australian government apologising to aborigines etc.
JuniorD said:
The joke is not anti-Semitic for it reminds us that the bodies of the Jews were burnt by the Germans. Maybe some Jews don't think a joke with with that reference is appropriate but it's not anti semitic per se. Personally i think it's very funny and only wish I'd heard her say it rather than read it. Joan Rivers is scandalously funny, she can get away with anything.
If you truly believe the words you have written then not only are you delusional you are also the very example of an anti- Semite .mikial said:
JuniorD said:
The joke is not anti-Semitic for it reminds us that the bodies of the Jews were burnt by the Germans. Maybe some Jews don't think a joke with with that reference is appropriate but it's not anti semitic per se. Personally i think it's very funny and only wish I'd heard her say it rather than read it. Joan Rivers is scandalously funny, she can get away with anything.
If you truly believe the words you have written then not only are you delusional you are also the very example of an anti- Semite .Joan Rivers, dislike her although she does come out with the odd gem like this.
ADL need to STFU – as another has said the ‘butt’ of the joke appears far more to be ‘zee Germans’ than ‘die juden’. If they want to get really antsey about all this can someone remind them that it was more often than not Jewish themselves who did the pushing. Not of their free will but still if we are going to get all precious about this let us be honest on both sides.
Boys. Please. Take a little time to educate yourselves as to reality, not what you would like to think was the case.
1. Royal Family changed their name in 1917 when AH was still in the trenches so you got the date right but to link it with a war that didn’t start for another 20 years is stretching it.
2. The Idiot of Windsor abdicated some time before the War kicked off and whilst he and his lovely wife [sic] were supporters of AH, as were a lot of people in high society around the World, not just in Britain.
3. AH NEVER had the support of the majority of the German people. He was leader of the largest party in the Reichstag at the time of the collapse of the coalition government and so was invited to try to form a government based on that fact. IIRC even then his electoral share was less than even Labour managed the last time they were in charge here...
4. Once AH was in power you had three choices. 1. Be vocal about your love and support for AH and the Party, or 2. Enjoy you place in our nice shiny holiday camp (if you survive as far as it and then building it) or 3. GTFO of Central Europe.
I have seen it suggested that the French were actually much quicker to hand over their Jewish than even the Germans expected.
ADL need to STFU – as another has said the ‘butt’ of the joke appears far more to be ‘zee Germans’ than ‘die juden’. If they want to get really antsey about all this can someone remind them that it was more often than not Jewish themselves who did the pushing. Not of their free will but still if we are going to get all precious about this let us be honest on both sides.
Ozzie Osmond said:
thehawk said:
Which is of course gravely wrong, the Nazis were Germans, most Germans supported the Nazis and their views (as did a lot of pre war British it has to be said)
Including, it seems, some of the German royal family ensconced in Buckingham Palace who had conveniently changed their last name from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor during WW1 !!1. Royal Family changed their name in 1917 when AH was still in the trenches so you got the date right but to link it with a war that didn’t start for another 20 years is stretching it.
2. The Idiot of Windsor abdicated some time before the War kicked off and whilst he and his lovely wife [sic] were supporters of AH, as were a lot of people in high society around the World, not just in Britain.
3. AH NEVER had the support of the majority of the German people. He was leader of the largest party in the Reichstag at the time of the collapse of the coalition government and so was invited to try to form a government based on that fact. IIRC even then his electoral share was less than even Labour managed the last time they were in charge here...
4. Once AH was in power you had three choices. 1. Be vocal about your love and support for AH and the Party, or 2. Enjoy you place in our nice shiny holiday camp (if you survive as far as it and then building it) or 3. GTFO of Central Europe.
I have seen it suggested that the French were actually much quicker to hand over their Jewish than even the Germans expected.
Your last point segues into another little sidenote of European cultural history. There is very much a Paris & the "rest of us" attitude in France and though there are many reasons for that, a part of it stems from a feeling in rural and wider France of "nothing must touch Paris". You get any rural French person drunk of an evening and at some point there will be an accusation of France caved into the Germans so quickly to save Paris. I mean, even us Brits arent *that* bad about London!
^^^^
Vichy France is a very interesting topic I wish to read and understand more about one day.
IMO it had nothing to do with towers and art and everything to do with a Nation which was still reeling from being torn apart mentally, financially and physically being lead by a tired and frightened old man.
The Hero of Verdun was a shadow of himself by this time and i believe there to be much truth in the school of thought that says he'd just had enough of the bloodshed and war brought on his beloved country. After losing over 300,000 French men in that one action he would do just about anything to avoid putting the French people at risk of another long war, bleeding them dry of young men. The BEF were driven back into the sea with little effort. Everywhere else was falling over almost faster than the invading troops could travel. It is easy to put yourself in his shoes and see how suing for peace and trying to save the county the ravages of another war was the only viable option open to him.
All of this said knowing that many of the average 'Frenchman in the street' were looking to the east thinking "High levels of employment, top class infrastructure, advanced industry, successful expansion programme, I'm having a hard time seeing what the problem is with them other than that they are German." Very much touched on due to the nature of this topic but the Germans were, as a man in the street, no more anti-Semitic than anyone else at the time. Again from memory but I seem to think that it was only the Dutch who actively resisted handing over / exposing much of their Jewish population. In some other countries they practically picked them up and dropped them off outside the SS offices.
Vichy France is a very interesting topic I wish to read and understand more about one day. IMO it had nothing to do with towers and art and everything to do with a Nation which was still reeling from being torn apart mentally, financially and physically being lead by a tired and frightened old man.
The Hero of Verdun was a shadow of himself by this time and i believe there to be much truth in the school of thought that says he'd just had enough of the bloodshed and war brought on his beloved country. After losing over 300,000 French men in that one action he would do just about anything to avoid putting the French people at risk of another long war, bleeding them dry of young men. The BEF were driven back into the sea with little effort. Everywhere else was falling over almost faster than the invading troops could travel. It is easy to put yourself in his shoes and see how suing for peace and trying to save the county the ravages of another war was the only viable option open to him.
All of this said knowing that many of the average 'Frenchman in the street' were looking to the east thinking "High levels of employment, top class infrastructure, advanced industry, successful expansion programme, I'm having a hard time seeing what the problem is with them other than that they are German." Very much touched on due to the nature of this topic but the Germans were, as a man in the street, no more anti-Semitic than anyone else at the time. Again from memory but I seem to think that it was only the Dutch who actively resisted handing over / exposing much of their Jewish population. In some other countries they practically picked them up and dropped them off outside the SS offices.
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