Climate change - the POLITICAL debate. Vol 2

[LongQ]

V88Dicky said:

Can't speak for Heysham, but Hartlepool's on a routine planned outage at the moment. They'll take this opportunity to inspect the boiler(s) that Heysham have had a fault with.

Storm in a teacup (pardon the pun)

There will undoubtedly be some political PR going on from all parties mostly influenced by the precautionary principle.

However Wikipedia's entry (yes, I know, it's Wikipedia, but ...) seems to suggest a planned life of 30 years for the plants. Based on the start of operations in 1983 that would mean and end to it use last year. But since it was not declared fully operational until 1989 closure is expected in 2019.

So, some problems are found just after the expected 30 year life expires (thus would not have been a problem if things had gone to plan) and presumably EDF would baulk at any expensive repair work given that the current expected plan has the place closing in 4 to 5 years. Take 6 months to a year out of that if significant work is required and I would foresee a commercial decision to cut the losses and run ... unless some sort of government factored support became available and perhaps the expected life of the plant was to be extended by, say, another 5 years. Any serious problems that might result from the extension to be funded by the government, though not too obviously of course.

Cynical? Me?

If they get the money they are quids in.

If they don't but government's immediate alternative proposal is to fill the energy gap buy buying expensive electricity from French located, owned and built wind farms (see reports from recent days of paying possible subsidies) EDF are likely to be involved and so still in the money.

Wait for the others to follow.

[FiF]

Could be interesting dependent upon what they find. and what is required to fix it.

According my information the boiler component that has an issue is a pressure part that is no longer capable of being made in UK, and not sure where they would get a replacement quickly considering all the necessary item specific quality assurance hoo hah that had to be done on the original build. Think x feet of tube on the lorry, x^(n+1) feet of QA records accompanying shipment. Seriously at some points, more paper than steel was the order of the day. Wasn't just a case of running off a generic test and inspection plan and hitting the start button.

That's even without consideration regarding finding a suitable qualified capable manufacturer with access to raw material and production capacity.

What's the cry, Damart and candles? Looks at generator attachment point.

[Mr GrimNasty]

LongQ said:

Oakey said:

Wind turbines are producing 17percent of the supply tonight. see, renewables aren't useless. Wind turbines are perfectly viable... so long as we've got this sort of weather constantly and you're happy with to live with that

Yup.

Been very up and down though, despite the windy weather. Often quite a significant difference between the 2 forecasts for output and what is finally produced. Must be a big challenge trying to keep things balanced on the grid.

Of course the 17% figure is helped by it being night time and summer.

No doubt we will see some sort of press release soon telling the masses how the things are providing such large percentages of demand and what a success they are.

The weather must have been pretty much optimum, and still it was only about 40% of stated metered capacity.

This comes after 3 months solid of next to nothing from wind too!

[wc98]

never mind ,as it is getting so much warmer due to cagw we should not require so much power this winter ,or maybe not http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2014/08/12/what...
he might be a bit off the wall at times, but as he says,which part of this is not clear. it would appear much of the warming is a product of adjustment.

[turbobloke]

New Poll Shows Most Americans Don’t Believe Climate Change Supposed Consensus Exists

A new survey conducted for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette demonstrates that many Americans remain uncertain about the impact of climate change and the need for government action to address it. Only 41 percent of Americans believe that ‘most scientists agree that climate change is happening now caused mainly by human activities.’

James P. O'Toole, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 10 August 2014

That means there's no consensus about the non-consensus

[Andy Zarse]

turbobloke said:

That means there's no consensus about the non-consensus

Yes, but equally there's a consensus that there's no consensus about consensus... Happy days!

[barryrs]

Anyone seen the new Safestyle TV ad?

Buy our windows and doors to prevent climate change!

[turbobloke]

barryrs said:

Anyone seen the new Safestyle TV ad?

Buy our windows and doors to prevent climate change!

It's absolutely amazing, fitting just one window can influence the planet's rotational and orbital parameters and even solar activity. These people and their products must be very speshull in every way.

[XM5ER]

FiF said:

a pressure part that is no longer capable of being made in UK,

That really is the single most depressing sentence I've read all day, and it's had some serious competition.

[kingofdbrits]

barryrs said:

Anyone seen the new Safestyle TV ad?

Buy our windows and doors to prevent climate change!

The things we're having to do in construction these days, i'm surprised we've not reversed globa warming so much we're in an ice age!!

We installed a load of Solar panels on a School roof, the Council said they'd pay for the initial costs and keep the feed-in-tarrif and the School could use the power generated.

Well, the entire system was rated at 2.2kW, but with clouds and such like the manufacturer said it'd be closer to an average of 1.1kW during the day. To acheive the BREEAM excellent the council demanded we needed to install a plasma TV in reception (gave us 1 extra point) to show how brilliant and eco-friendly the council are by displaying how much energy the solar panels are making.
When the electrician was installing the plasma i took a look in the box to see how much power the Plasma uses, it was 1kW.

When the system was all up and running, the display was indeed showing how much electricity the 2.2kW rated solar panels were actually making, it was 670 watts.

We did have a chuckle.

On second thought, all this stuff we're doing to combat global warming, i'm surprised it's not getting Hotter!

[Andy Zarse]

kingofdbrits said:

Well, the entire system was rated at 2.2kW, but with clouds and such like the manufacturer said it'd be closer to an average of 1.1kW during the day...
I took a look in the box to see how much power the Plasma uses, it was 1kW...
When the system was all up and running, the display was indeed showing how much electricity the 2.2kW rated solar panels were actually making, it was 670 watts.

Jesus wept, and well he might.

These people are utter cretins, unfortunately we give them a budget.

[Oakey]

kingofdbrits said:

The things we're having to do in construction these days, i'm surprised we've not reversed globa warming so much we're in an ice age!!

We installed a load of Solar panels on a School roof, the Council said they'd pay for the initial costs and keep the feed-in-tarrif and the School could use the power generated.

Well, the entire system was rated at 2.2kW, but with clouds and such like the manufacturer said it'd be closer to an average of 1.1kW during the day. To acheive the BREEAM excellent the council demanded we needed to install a plasma TV in reception (gave us 1 extra point) to show how brilliant and eco-friendly the council are by displaying how much energy the solar panels are making.
When the electrician was installing the plasma i took a look in the box to see how much power the Plasma uses, it was 1kW.

When the system was all up and running, the display was indeed showing how much electricity the 2.2kW rated solar panels were actually making, it was 670 watts.

We did have a chuckle.

On second thought, all this stuff we're doing to combat global warming, i'm surprised it's not getting Hotter!

This screen must be a nationwide requirement because we have a new health centre that has a screen in reception that shows nothing but how much power the installed renewables are providing. Why wouldn't they use LED screens instead of plasmas?

[mybrainhurts]

Guam said:

Andy Zarse said:

Yes, but equally there's a consensus that there's no consensus about consensus... Happy days!

Stop that this instance I am sixty in 10 days and my brain is not as sharp as it once was!

Stop that this instance and don't call me it.

[LongQ]

kingofdbrits said:

The things we're having to do in construction these days, i'm surprised we've not reversed globa warming so much we're in an ice age!!

We installed a load of Solar panels on a School roof, the Council said they'd pay for the initial costs and keep the feed-in-tarrif and the School could use the power generated.

Well, the entire system was rated at 2.2kW, but with clouds and such like the manufacturer said it'd be closer to an average of 1.1kW during the day. To acheive the BREEAM excellent the council demanded we needed to install a plasma TV in reception (gave us 1 extra point) to show how brilliant and eco-friendly the council are by displaying how much energy the solar panels are making.
When the electrician was installing the plasma i took a look in the box to see how much power the Plasma uses, it was 1kW.

When the system was all up and running, the display was indeed showing how much electricity the 2.2kW rated solar panels were actually making, it was 670 watts.

We did have a chuckle.

On second thought, all this stuff we're doing to combat global warming, i'm surprised it's not getting Hotter!

1kW for the TV sounds a lot. Was it a rather old unit?

What would be really smart would be to have an on screen meter that dims dramatically and goes into negative territory when someone switches on a kettle. At the same time is should show the consumption of the display on which the numbers are being presented. That would be a good eduction for the members of the public who see it.

[FiF]

XM5ER said:

FiF said:

a pressure part that is no longer capable of being made in UK,

That really is the single most depressing sentence I've read all day, and it's had some serious competition.

Sorry to be the author and give you cause to be unhappy, but it's even more depressing knowing the background.

[kingofdbrits]

LongQ said:

1kW for the TV sounds a lot. Was it a rather old unit?

What would be really smart would be to have an on screen meter that dims dramatically and goes into negative territory when someone switches on a kettle. At the same time is should show the consumption of the display on which the numbers are being presented. That would be a good eduction for the members of the public who see it.

It was a cheap unit, needed to be a bit screen too, think it was a 50"? LED's use much less power than plasma's, but 4 years ago were quite a bit more ££'s for a screen that size. I have quite an old plasma at home, hold your hand over the top of the screen and it isn't much cooler than a radiator, thing runs hot.

We did suggest linking the power display to the schools website, so anyone can see it at anytime anywhere in the world, but that wouldn't get us the BREEAM point, giving us a lower score and less environmentally friendly building.

What gets me is just how the whole installation was thought through, I was the PM on the job so sat through the design meetings where the client (council) told us what they wanted. They thought a 2.2kW system would deliver 2.2kW from the crack of dawn until dusk and that they'd get their money back inside a year, then the school could enjoy all the free energy. They really were suckered in by a slick presentation from a solar panel manufacturer.

The panels were on the roof, the only plant on the roof, so we needed to install access (metal roof ladder) and edge protection (fold down metal handrail) as someone would at some point have to get on the roof, so we needed to install fire alarm sounders. As the roof was only single ply, when the panels broke (after 14 months) the engineer managed to puncture the roof, which went un noticed until the next heavy rain, so a roofer had to get up there to fix it etc...

It's what annoys me about much of the renewable installations, no one thinks about or factors in the indirect consequences & costs. To use their language, how much CO2 is emitted to make, install and maintain everything that goes along with roof solar panels on a building of this kind? I can guarantee that wasn't part of the sales presentation.

[kingofdbrits]

Oakey said:

This screen must be a nationwide requirement because we have a new health centre that has a screen in reception that shows nothing but how much power the installed renewables are providing. Why wouldn't they use LED screens instead of plasmas?

It isn't a requirement, but when you're working towards a BREEAM score as many public building do, of say 36 points, you get something like 2 points for having solar panels yet 1 additional point for displaying the energy on a TV screen in the building reception, so it's an easy way of collecting points to achieve the required score. I think it's intended to make renewable usage more visual & public, making it more of the 'norm' than the exception.

The way i see the screens is just another waste of energy, which i find illogical when the original intention of renewables is to save energy?

[LongQ]

FiF said:

XM5ER said:

FiF said:

a pressure part that is no longer capable of being made in UK,

That really is the single most depressing sentence I've read all day, and it's had some serious competition.

Sorry to be the author and give you cause to be unhappy, but it's even more depressing knowing the background.

Would, perhaps, have been even worse if you had left off the "in the UK" part.

[hidetheelephants]

FiF said:

Could be interesting dependent upon what they find. and what is required to fix it.

According my information the boiler component that has an issue is a pressure part that is no longer capable of being made in UK, and not sure where they would get a replacement quickly considering all the necessary item specific quality assurance hoo hah that had to be done on the original build. Think x feet of tube on the lorry, x^(n+1) feet of QA records accompanying shipment. Seriously at some points, more paper than steel was the order of the day. Wasn't just a case of running off a generic test and inspection plan and hitting the start button.

That's even without consideration regarding finding a suitable qualified capable manufacturer with access to raw material and production capacity.

I'd take that with a pinch of salt, there's not much the chaps in Sheffield can't turn their hands to, although I can quite accept the quoted price might not be acceptable to EDF and setting up the QA paper chain will no doubt take 10x longer than actually making the bits.

[LongQ]

kingofdbrits said:

Oakey said:

This screen must be a nationwide requirement because we have a new health centre that has a screen in reception that shows nothing but how much power the installed renewables are providing. Why wouldn't they use LED screens instead of plasmas?

It isn't a requirement, but when you're working towards a BREEAM score as many public building do, of say 36 points, you get something like 2 points for having solar panels yet 1 additional point for displaying the energy on a TV screen in the building reception, so it's an easy way of collecting points to achieve the required score. I think it's intended to make renewable usage more visual & public, making it more of the 'norm' than the exception.

The way i see the screens is just another waste of energy, which i find illogical when the original intention of renewables is to save energy?

Sad. Very sad.

You are entirely right about illogical. I think training for achieving a lack of any logic scores extra points these days. It must be so, logic is so lacking. More lacking than one would expect from natural competence.

We are surrounded by clearly illogical decisions made in all parts of the world. Therefore accepting the illogical becomes the norm. The tide one cannot fight against. Going with the tide pays the rent and buys the holiday that allows us to escape the lack of logic once or twice a year.

It's a very sad and insidious decline.