Climate change - the POLITICAL debate. Vol 2
Discussion
hidetheelephants said:
FiF said:
Could be interesting dependent upon what they find. and what is required to fix it.
According my information the boiler component that has an issue is a pressure part that is no longer capable of being made in UK, and not sure where they would get a replacement quickly considering all the necessary item specific quality assurance hoo hah that had to be done on the original build. Think x feet of tube on the lorry, x^(n+1) feet of QA records accompanying shipment. Seriously at some points, more paper than steel was the order of the day. Wasn't just a case of running off a generic test and inspection plan and hitting the start button.
That's even without consideration regarding finding a suitable qualified capable manufacturer with access to raw material and production capacity.
I'd take that with a pinch of salt, there's not much the chaps in Sheffield can't turn their hands to, although I can quite accept the quoted price might not be acceptable to EDF and setting up the QA paper chain will no doubt take 10x longer than actually making the bits.According my information the boiler component that has an issue is a pressure part that is no longer capable of being made in UK, and not sure where they would get a replacement quickly considering all the necessary item specific quality assurance hoo hah that had to be done on the original build. Think x feet of tube on the lorry, x^(n+1) feet of QA records accompanying shipment. Seriously at some points, more paper than steel was the order of the day. Wasn't just a case of running off a generic test and inspection plan and hitting the start button.
That's even without consideration regarding finding a suitable qualified capable manufacturer with access to raw material and production capacity.
France has a lot of nukes as we know and so presumably a supporting industry that would be in a good position to manufacture, test and supply components to an EU/Global acceptable standard. Or so one would hope for their sake.
No doubt such parts will need to be changed "as a safety precaution" on all the plants and so the specialised (almost certain to be that; = expensive) work ca n be used to help a French State owned utility to help the French Economy at a cost to the British energy user and tax payers. Might be set at a rate that defrays the missed revenue from the French Arms sales to Russia. Or the (alleged) large influx of ex-pats into Londo attempting to escape Hollande's taxes.
In times past I would have suggest that a motive might be to sell us more electricity via the French interconnect but these days that seems to be operating at full design capacity anyway. Perhaps French Nuke electricity is comparatively cheap at the moment? If so they could put the price up (rather than supply more) in order to ensure that we appreciated the efforts they are going to make on our behalf.
Taking an audience into uncharted gigo territory.
- Professor Dame Julia Slingo DBE DSc
- Taking the planet into uncharted territory: What climate models can tell
- Date: Tuesday 2nd September 2014
- Venue: Institute of Physics, 76 Portland Place, London, W1B 1NT (NB new
- Time: 18.30 (registration from 18.00)
Einion Yrth said:
turbobloke said:
Taking an audience into uncharted gigo territory.
What climate models can tell
us about the future.
Feck all as far as I can tell.What climate models can tell
us about the future.
I've been meaning to post this quote from C.S.Lewis for some time. I find his thoughts especially relevant in today's climate (sic).
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”
There is to be no escape from those whose life's work is to "Save the World for our childrens' childrens' sake".
hidetheelephants said:
I'd take that with a pinch of salt, there's not much the chaps in Sheffield can't turn their hands to, although I can quite accept the quoted price might not be acceptable to EDF and setting up the QA paper chain will no doubt take 10x longer than actually making the bits.
The point is that there is a difference between someone turning their hand to doing something against someone with the necessary approvals and proven track record in making such components.That's before you get the obstacles that the owner operator is a French state owned company with their existing links to the supply chain. Before you get to the issue that specifications have moved on and dependant upon flexibility of the design approvals there will be further cost and delay.
So it's not just a matter of financial cost but lost generating capacity.
Of course it may be that it's a simple repair. There's been a research programme going for some time re creep testing on particular weldments in large section components such as these. The reason being that such tests were not considered in the original approvals. Creep tests take years. Min of 30,000 hours test time required. 3.5 years. Maybe they have got somewhere with that. I did my bit and left them to it. Still trying to source material not a single test hour started. Depends on the detail of what is wrong and exactly where but the above may not be relevant and they have to start from scratch.
That's before we even get to the question of not invented here :Gallic shrug:
The point is that if it's what I think it is a lot more complicated than getting the boys in Sheffield to cobble something up. Or some hairy arsed welders to spark up a couple of test runs and then plough on.
FiF said:
hidetheelephants said:
I'd take that with a pinch of salt, there's not much the chaps in Sheffield can't turn their hands to, although I can quite accept the quoted price might not be acceptable to EDF and setting up the QA paper chain will no doubt take 10x longer than actually making the bits.
The point is that there is a difference between someone turning their hand to doing something against someone with the necessary approvals and proven track record in making such components.That's before you get the obstacles that the owner operator is a French state owned company with their existing links to the supply chain. Before you get to the issue that specifications have moved on and dependant upon flexibility of the design approvals there will be further cost and delay.
So it's not just a matter of financial cost but lost generating capacity.
Of course it may be that it's a simple repair. There's been a research programme going for some time re creep testing on particular weldments in large section components such as these. The reason being that such tests were not considered in the original approvals. Creep tests take years. Min of 30,000 hours test time required. 3.5 years. Maybe they have got somewhere with that. I did my bit and left them to it. Still trying to source material not a single test hour started. Depends on the detail of what is wrong and exactly where but the above may not be relevant and they have to start from scratch.
That's before we even get to the question of not invented here :Gallic shrug:
The point is that if it's what I think it is a lot more complicated than getting the boys in Sheffield to cobble something up. Or some hairy arsed welders to spark up a couple of test runs and then plough on.
One turbine collapsed, so they demolished them both, mind, but I'm sure that had nothing to do with them....
mybrainhurts said:
I'm sure the University of Sheffield's advanced manufacturing research department would be more than capable. They work with the likes of Boeing and have the right green credentials, having built a new HQ with a couple of large wind turbines alongside.
One turbine collapsed, so they demolished them both, mind, but I'm sure that had nothing to do with them....
Taking the post as generally fairly tongue in cheek. One turbine collapsed, so they demolished them both, mind, but I'm sure that had nothing to do with them....
Brains are not in short supply. You also need some big bits of kit to manufactureaand test it. This is pressure vessel stuff AND nuclear. How you make it is also important to ensure the eventual properties of the component material lies within the dataset behind the original design approval.
FiF said:
mybrainhurts said:
I'm sure the University of Sheffield's advanced manufacturing research department would be more than capable. They work with the likes of Boeing and have the right green credentials, having built a new HQ with a couple of large wind turbines alongside.
One turbine collapsed, so they demolished them both, mind, but I'm sure that had nothing to do with them....
Taking the post as generally fairly tongue in cheek. One turbine collapsed, so they demolished them both, mind, but I'm sure that had nothing to do with them....
Brains are not in short supply. You also need some big bits of kit to manufactureaand test it. This is pressure vessel stuff AND nuclear. How you make it is also important to ensure the eventual properties of the component material lies within the dataset behind the original design approval.
LongQ said:
Are there still chaps in Sheffield?
Forgemasters are still thriving and seem to compete well with their German rivals, so they must be doing something rightLongQ said:
France has a lot of nukes as we know and so presumably a supporting industry that would be in a good position to manufacture, test and supply components to an EU/Global acceptable standard. Or so one would hope for their sake.
You'd assume so, but given the spinning bow tie demonstration in Finland and to a lesser degree with Flamanville, perhaps their ducks aren't in as much of a row as they ought to be.FiF said:
The point is that there is a difference between someone turning their hand to doing something against someone with the necessary approvals and proven track record in making such components.
ONR aside, there's presumably still a paper chain for the original bit which is still live and I'd assume that EDF are their own design authority; how hard is it to just copy the old part, it's done the job satisfactorily for 3 decades so there are grounds for grandfathering. There is a huge hole where there ought to have been 30 years of steadily funded materials science and reactor development, creep testing and all. US Democrats Embrace Shale Boom Ahead of Midterm Elections As A World Awash In Oil Shields The Markets From 2008 Price Shock
The US shale boom is shaping a new kind of Democrat in national politics, lawmakers who are giving greater support to the oil and gas industry even at the risk of alienating environmental groups, a core of the party's base. The trend comes as oil-and-gas production moves beyond America's traditionally energy-rich states, a development that also is increasing US geopolitical influence abroad. This is a theme playing out ahead of November's midterm elections, with some Democrats trying to balance environmental groups' concerns about climate change and an industry they see as carrying economic benefits.
Amy Harder, The Wall Street Journal, 12 August 2014
In the run-up to this fall’s midterm elections, Democrats seem to be stifling some of their green sensibilities and embracing the recent US energy revolution. Fracking has completely transformed the American energy landscape in just a few short years, and environmentalists, a key component of the Democratic base, aren’t happy. Fracking is opening up new oil and gas plays all across the country, and Democrats who previously might have vocally criticized fossil fuel production are finding plenty of reasons to hop on the shale bandwagon. Stay tuned, this is a narrative to watch during this year’s midterms.
Walter Russell Mead, The American Interest, 12 August 2014
Fighting across Iraq, Libya, Ukraine and Gaza, and an accelerating economy, should mean higher oil prices. Yet crude is falling. Six years ago, oil soared to a record $147 a barrel as tension mounted over Iran’s nuclear program and the world economy had just seen the strongest period of sustained growth since the 1970s. Now, West Texas Intermediate, the US benchmark price, has traded below $100 for 10 days and Brent, the European equivalent, tumbled to a 13-month low yesterday. What’s changed is the shale fracking boom. The US is pumping the most oil in 27 years, adding more than 3 million barrels of daily supply since 2008.
Lynn Doan, Grant Smith and Moming Zhou, Bloomberg, 13 August 2014
The US shale boom is shaping a new kind of Democrat in national politics, lawmakers who are giving greater support to the oil and gas industry even at the risk of alienating environmental groups, a core of the party's base. The trend comes as oil-and-gas production moves beyond America's traditionally energy-rich states, a development that also is increasing US geopolitical influence abroad. This is a theme playing out ahead of November's midterm elections, with some Democrats trying to balance environmental groups' concerns about climate change and an industry they see as carrying economic benefits.
Amy Harder, The Wall Street Journal, 12 August 2014
In the run-up to this fall’s midterm elections, Democrats seem to be stifling some of their green sensibilities and embracing the recent US energy revolution. Fracking has completely transformed the American energy landscape in just a few short years, and environmentalists, a key component of the Democratic base, aren’t happy. Fracking is opening up new oil and gas plays all across the country, and Democrats who previously might have vocally criticized fossil fuel production are finding plenty of reasons to hop on the shale bandwagon. Stay tuned, this is a narrative to watch during this year’s midterms.
Walter Russell Mead, The American Interest, 12 August 2014
Fighting across Iraq, Libya, Ukraine and Gaza, and an accelerating economy, should mean higher oil prices. Yet crude is falling. Six years ago, oil soared to a record $147 a barrel as tension mounted over Iran’s nuclear program and the world economy had just seen the strongest period of sustained growth since the 1970s. Now, West Texas Intermediate, the US benchmark price, has traded below $100 for 10 days and Brent, the European equivalent, tumbled to a 13-month low yesterday. What’s changed is the shale fracking boom. The US is pumping the most oil in 27 years, adding more than 3 million barrels of daily supply since 2008.
Lynn Doan, Grant Smith and Moming Zhou, Bloomberg, 13 August 2014
Blib said:
Wouldn't surprise me if a Milliband government here banned it too.
I'm not so sure as they've been pretty quiet about it so I suspect even they understand the economic implications and the likely boom in tax revenues allowing for lots more jolly schemes giving free laptops to badgers and the like.
mybrainhurts said:
And Germany's banned it...
What's German for Achtung, cockup...?
Not so sure about that. What's German for Achtung, cockup...?
Firstly they have France next door with more nukular than they can cope with (or need if the economy is hitting the longer downhill ski slopes) so they have that option to consider for a few more years. Probably do a deal to get it cheap too.
Secondly they have surface coal reserves and when they run out there is always Poland.
So they have more and cheaper options than we in Blighty have.
Politically, on the surface, it looks like a decent play that will probably gain popular support from the mass market followers needed to keep the ambitions of current "lawmakers" alive.
Nineteen bins to save the planet is a possibility says Veolia rep.
"Our Town Halls have been captured by crazed Guardianistas all living in their own reality show."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2725482/...
"Our Town Halls have been captured by crazed Guardianistas all living in their own reality show."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2725482/...
Wasn't nineteen bins when I read it some time ago but suppose that Littlejohn for you.
Agree with his observation that it seems to depend on where you are as to the policy.
For example in Sweden it's far more advanced.
In apartment blocks it's quite manageable.
We had two refuse rooms or ground floor with big wheeled bins in there. Sort you see outside shops and restaurants in UK.
First room had bins for normal waste for landfill or incineration, plus bins for compostable waste.
The second room was the recycling room, separating stuff out into paper and newspaper magazines, hard cardboard, plastics, white glass, green glass, other coloured glass, metal. Seven in all, with the other two that makes nine.
Occasionally you'd have a run in with the self appointed recycling police.
Living away from apartments however it's more of a fricking pane, and just needs lots of runs to the communal recycling bins, which fortunately were all over the place, outside shops, garages etc. So we didn't personally have any extra bins for collection, but you had to sort out some system of segregration so next time you went out you'd take something for recycling. And no recycling police in our house.
No doubt the UK system, if implemented, will be as complicated, inconvenient to the public and authoritarian as it's possible to make it.
Agree with his observation that it seems to depend on where you are as to the policy.
For example in Sweden it's far more advanced.
In apartment blocks it's quite manageable.
We had two refuse rooms or ground floor with big wheeled bins in there. Sort you see outside shops and restaurants in UK.
First room had bins for normal waste for landfill or incineration, plus bins for compostable waste.
The second room was the recycling room, separating stuff out into paper and newspaper magazines, hard cardboard, plastics, white glass, green glass, other coloured glass, metal. Seven in all, with the other two that makes nine.
Occasionally you'd have a run in with the self appointed recycling police.
Living away from apartments however it's more of a fricking pane, and just needs lots of runs to the communal recycling bins, which fortunately were all over the place, outside shops, garages etc. So we didn't personally have any extra bins for collection, but you had to sort out some system of segregration so next time you went out you'd take something for recycling. And no recycling police in our house.
No doubt the UK system, if implemented, will be as complicated, inconvenient to the public and authoritarian as it's possible to make it.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff