Climate change - the POLITICAL debate. Vol 2

[Mr GrimNasty]

TransverseTight said:

Right, just a quick one. As a driver you don't need to worry about global warming any more. I'm prety sure Telsa have just ended the debate on the best way to power vehicles... 1st review is out.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/14...

This is the P85D, imagine what the P120Q (quad motors) will be like in 2017.

Owning a fast car like that means no blame on you. Blame the energy industry ;-)

This is the old one P85+, kind of eating up a Aston Rapide in what I'd call a real world test of acceleration. Kind of thing you mnight want to do overtaking on the back roads. Not seeing how fast you can get 0-200/kmh.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/video-tesla-mod...

Does that makes the politics easier? Shouldn't we ask the government to make all electric cars VAT free? Or something. Better than giving out tax payers money as grants. Rather than giving money away, take less in taxes? Even the most hardened politically motivated skeptic can't argue with that.

Give it a rest - why don't you create your own thread?

It's a niche car, a toy, an irrelevance, not a game changer or a solution to anything. It's no more useful to the masses than rednecks souping up battery buzz saws and seeing how fast they can run 100m. You are never going to get mass use of all battery cars at an affordable price as primary vehicles.

And yes, to show just how bad/illogical your thinking is, not paying VAT is just another subsidy, lost revenue that has to be paid for from elsewhere.

[LongQ]

mybrainhurts said:

Today, my contempt for wind turbines increased by several notches.

Southbound on the M1, three turbine blades and one tower section, turning it into a 1 lane motorway with 40 - 45mph queues for fifteen miles.

One was not amused, in fact one was jolly well pissed orf...

I managed to get in line behind a 3 or 4 vehicle convoy a couple of Saturday's back. Not blades but tower sections. You could almost see the subsidies dripping out.

[LongQ]

Mr GrimNasty said:

And yes, to show just how bad/illogical your thinking is, not paying VAT is just another subsidy, lost revenue that has to be paid for from elsewhere.

Indeed. In reality I suspect the VAT should be increased to fund the cost of infrastructure development for the present electric car business model.

[Scuffers]

TransverseTight said:

Right, just a quick one. As a driver you don't need to worry about global warming any more. I'm prety sure Telsa have just ended the debate on the best way to power vehicles... 1st review is out.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/14...

This is the P85D, imagine what the P120Q (quad motors) will be like in 2017.

Owning a fast car like that means no blame on you. Blame the energy industry ;-)

This is the old one P85+, kind of eating up a Aston Rapide in what I'd call a real world test of acceleration. Kind of thing you mnight want to do overtaking on the back roads. Not seeing how fast you can get 0-200/kmh.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/video-tesla-mod...

Does that makes the politics easier? Shouldn't we ask the government to make all electric cars VAT free? Or something. Better than giving out tax payers money as grants. Rather than giving money away, take less in taxes? Even the most hardened politically motivated skeptic can't argue with that.

out of interest, where do you think the electricity to charge these comes from?

[Diderot]

Scuffers said:

TransverseTight said:

Right, just a quick one. As a driver you don't need to worry about global warming any more. I'm prety sure Telsa have just ended the debate on the best way to power vehicles... 1st review is out.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/14...

This is the P85D, imagine what the P120Q (quad motors) will be like in 2017.

Owning a fast car like that means no blame on you. Blame the energy industry ;-)

This is the old one P85+, kind of eating up a Aston Rapide in what I'd call a real world test of acceleration. Kind of thing you mnight want to do overtaking on the back roads. Not seeing how fast you can get 0-200/kmh.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/video-tesla-mod...

Does that makes the politics easier? Shouldn't we ask the government to make all electric cars VAT free? Or something. Better than giving out tax payers money as grants. Rather than giving money away, take less in taxes? Even the most hardened politically motivated skeptic can't argue with that.

out of interest, where do you think the electricity to charge these comes from?

Or indeed all those nasty rare earth materials for the batteries ...

[With these feet]

Scuffers said:

out of interest, where do you think the electricity to charge these comes from?

To add, with the cold weather on its way and MSM reporting as it does that we potentially have a deficit in power production, how does a 6/8/12 hour power cut affect someone with an electric vehicle? There you are ready to leave to work and realise the clocks on the cooker are flashing, go out to your £120,000 "super saloon" only to find where you needed 80 miles of range you only have 50. At least with an ICE its not affected by power cuts overnight. Also after reading that article, apart from it obviously having been written by a Tesla fanboi, why is there no graph to show battery life? Perhaps the amazing, astounding, incredible warp speed (less than a 10th of a second over the 177mph Audi vs Tesla @ 155?) sucks the life out of the batteries so fast you can only do it once or twice between recharges.

Electric vehicles IMO are not the way forward, electric motor drive maybe with the demise of the gearbox and clutch, but batteries in a car make me think Tamiya, not tommorow!

[chris watton]

With these feet said:

Scuffers said:

out of interest, where do you think the electricity to charge these comes from?

To add, with the cold weather on its way and MSM reporting as it does that we potentially have a deficit in power production, how does a 6/8/12 hour power cut affect someone with an electric vehicle? There you are ready to leave to work and realise the clocks on the cooker are flashing, go out to your £120,000 "super saloon" only to find where you needed 80 miles of range you only have 50. At least with an ICE its not affected by power cuts overnight. Also after reading that article, apart from it obviously having been written by a Tesla fanboi, why is there no graph to show battery life? Perhaps the amazing, astounding, incredible warp speed (less than a 10th of a second over the 177mph Audi vs Tesla @ 155?) sucks the life out of the batteries so fast you can only do it once or twice between recharges.

Electric vehicles IMO are not the way forward, electric motor drive maybe with the demise of the gearbox and clutch, but batteries in a car make me think Tamiya, not tommorow!

I can just imagine - in the depths of our cold, dark winters, EV owners will buy dirty great diesel generators to charge their 'green' modes of transport!

[turbobloke]

chris watton said:

With these feet said:

Scuffers said:

out of interest, where do you think the electricity to charge these comes from?

To add, with the cold weather on its way and MSM reporting as it does that we potentially have a deficit in power production, how does a 6/8/12 hour power cut affect someone with an electric vehicle? There you are ready to leave to work and realise the clocks on the cooker are flashing, go out to your £120,000 "super saloon" only to find where you needed 80 miles of range you only have 50. At least with an ICE its not affected by power cuts overnight. Also after reading that article, apart from it obviously having been written by a Tesla fanboi, why is there no graph to show battery life? Perhaps the amazing, astounding, incredible warp speed (less than a 10th of a second over the 177mph Audi vs Tesla @ 155?) sucks the life out of the batteries so fast you can only do it once or twice between recharges.

Electric vehicles IMO are not the way forward, electric motor drive maybe with the demise of the gearbox and clutch, but batteries in a car make me think Tamiya, not tommorow!

I can just imagine - in the depths of our cold, dark winters, EV owners will buy dirty great diesel generators to charge their 'green' modes of transport!

It would never happen with solar power installations in Spain. Hang on a mo...

'After press reports, it was established during inspections that several solar power plants were generating current and feeding it into the net at night. To simulate a larger installation capacity, the operators connected diesel generators.'

'“This is just the tip of the iceberg,” said one industry expert to the newspaper “El Mundo”, which brought the scandal to light. If solar systems apparently produce current in the dark, it will be noticed sooner or later. However, if electricity generators were connected during daytime, the swindle would hardly be noticed.'

Insanity of Greenery

[bodhi]

TransverseTight said:

Right, just a quick one. As a driver you don't need to worry about global warming any more. I'm prety sure Telsa have just ended the debate on the best way to power vehicles... 1st review is out.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/14...

This is the P85D, imagine what the P120Q (quad motors) will be like in 2017.

Owning a fast car like that means no blame on you. Blame the energy industry ;-)

This is the old one P85+, kind of eating up a Aston Rapide in what I'd call a real world test of acceleration. Kind of thing you mnight want to do overtaking on the back roads. Not seeing how fast you can get 0-200/kmh.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/video-tesla-mod...

Does that makes the politics easier? Shouldn't we ask the government to make all electric cars VAT free? Or something. Better than giving out tax payers money as grants. Rather than giving money away, take less in taxes? Even the most hardened politically motivated skeptic can't argue with that.

Great! So with double the motors does it take half as long to go into limp home mode if you actually use all the power?

[turbobloke]

Except for those with vested interests in the climate myths, political opportunists, zealots and the hard of thinking who are easily gulled, nobody with any sense was worring about global warming anyway.

[The Don of Croy]

Take heart!

You thought it was all one way traffic battling with climate zealots? Wrong - they're suffering, and now everyone knows about it we'll probably have a telethon up and running in the not-too-distant-future.

See it all here;

http://www.steynonline.com/6643/but-enough-about-t...

[turbobloke]

The Don of Croy said:

Take heart!

You thought it was all one way traffic battling with climate zealots? Wrong - they're suffering, and now everyone knows about it we'll probably have a telethon up and running in the not-too-distant-future.

See it all here;

http://www.steynonline.com/6643/but-enough-about-t...

Awww shucks.

Hard cheese, Parmesan.

[Guybrush]

Interesting that the left are bothering the USA by using the same climate 'argument' tactics worldwide - CNN use the same language to try and brainwash the easily manipulated, for example, introducing the founder of The Weather Channel as a "Denier"...

http://www.glennbeck.com/2014/11/03/baloney-weathe...

[TransverseTight]

Scuffers said:

out of interest, where do you think the electricity to charge these comes from?

I've got 2 houses -
1) Owned / mortgaged and is powered 2/3 by wind, 1/4 solar, 6% hydro and a bit of anerobic digestion.
2) Rented near where I work - 100% Nuclear.

I presume you now want to tell me that elecitrity from coal emits more CO2 than oil powered cars, without having looked at the well to wheel study links I posted earlier. Given that the study was done mostly with representatives from the Car and Oil Industry and EVs still came out on top by a long margin, I don't think you can claim it's a conspiracy from the lefty greenies making up numbers.

That said my personal opinion is that we should find a way to change the energy system for long term economic benefits - i.e. no constraints on fuel supply, rather than going on about C02 all the while. Total economic benefit when looked at as a whole. It's worth reading a lot about how oil prices affect the economy.

I've been interested in alternative energy for a long while before Al Gore sent everyone into hysteria. From a science, engineering, and economic viewpoint. Not Climate Change. Best example - buying fuel cell shares in 1999. Waste of bloody money that was. Bought at $108 per share, gave to charity at $6 share! LOL.

I've been posting a lot on EVs on here as I think they are better for a lot of uses. Just like I think a V8 is a better way of going fast than an 1.6Diesel. Or a 1.6 Diesel is a better way of getting more miles for less money. I think an EV is a better way to power a car from normal people, Notable exeptions being, racing drivers, track day enthusiasts, mobile sales reps, people with daily commutes more than 60 miles (250 miles if you are loaded). Main problems are they are a bit too pricey till about 2019 / 2020. Even if the EV has more CO2 emissions I'd think they were better as the dynamics of the drive is different. Still I'l be accused of hijacking the thread again so I'll shut up now.

[mybrainhurts]

TransverseTight said:

a long while before Al Gore sent everyone into hysteria.

Do you mean anger or laughter...?

[TransverseTight]

turbobloke said:

It would never happen with solar power installations in Spain. Hang on a mo...

'After press reports, it was established during inspections that several solar power plants were generating current and feeding it into the net at night. To simulate a larger installation capacity, the operators connected diesel generators.'

'“This is just the tip of the iceberg,” said one industry expert to the newspaper “El Mundo”, which brought the scandal to light. If solar systems apparently produce current in the dark, it will be noticed sooner or later. However, if electricity generators were connected during daytime, the swindle would hardly be noticed.'

Insanity of Greenery

I had thought of a similar scam a few years back. If you get paid for exporting electricity... why not just ask your neighbour to run a 13 amp lead over the fence and pay him the 16p /kWh and get your 41p FiT. not worth it now as the FiT is less than the cost of the electricity.

What is interesting is that in probably 5 years time, we won't need subsidies for solar - it will make sense to install it as it will cost the same as buying off the grid. The best part being that you won't face any price rises for the electric. All you need then is an in house battery storage system to get you through the night and bob's yer uncle. The Big 6 become 2nd choice for your leccy.

Someone mentioned earlier about rare minerals for batteries. Which ones are those? I've done some reading in the past and although rare, it's going to be a while before we get supply contraints. Even with LiIon theres 3 or 4 competing chemistries. And recycling. And Toyota still insist on NiCad for the Prius. Aluminium Air batteries look a nice future option for oil companies to sell for people on longer trips as they need replacing. So somewhere to sell them from near roads. Like petrol stations.

[TransverseTight]

mybrainhurts said:

TransverseTight said:

a long while before Al Gore sent everyone into hysteria.

Do you mean anger or laughter...?

Neither - total insanity - talking gibberish and being confused on what is reality and what isn't

[mybrainhurts]

TransverseTight said:

mybrainhurts said:

TransverseTight said:

a long while before Al Gore sent everyone into hysteria.

Do you mean anger or laughter...?

Neither - total insanity - talking gibberish and being confused on what is reality and what isn't

Confused now. You said "everyone".

Now you appear to be saying Fat Albert was confused and talking gibberish.

Well, no, he knows exactly what he has and is saying, it's all skilfully crafted to put $ millions into his coffers.

[TransverseTight]

powerstroke said:

Yes a sound like a kids remote controlled toy car over a v something petrol really does it for me !!!
Vat free !!! more like double plus a good contribution via say a £1000 RFL ..

I think a Telsa sounds better than a Diesel Hi Lux. ;-)

Given that 50% of new cars sales are also diesel, and the majority of the petrol cars will be under 2 litres, things like Ford Fiestas and Fiat 500s, I think the noise debate isn't really an issue.

I'm with you on the RFL. Given it is to pay for road maintenance - I can't imagine a 2 tonne Telsa doing 3.2 second 0-60 runs as demos to friends and family is going to cause less damage to the road than a 1.0 fiesta. Even just rolling along, the roads will be getting sqaushed. Are we going to get tram lines in the fast lane from all the Telsa owners, like the ones in the slow lane from trucks?

Actually I just think they should scrap road tax and stick it on fuel duty. Then the road tax dodgers have nothing to avoid. There's ony 17.000 EVs in the UK so it's not like we are losing much revenue yet. Just scrap the £5,000 grant and be happy the EV owner paid more VAT than an equivalent ICE owner. Actually - I just checked - the £5,000 grant is getting scrapped. First 50,000 cars, or 2017 which comes first. Better hurry if my posts have go you mulling the idea. LOL ( I know no chance!),

[TransverseTight]

TransverseTight said:

I'm with you on the RFL. Given it is to pay for road maintenance

Did I really just say that? What I actually meant was it is meant to pay for liposuction and cigarattes for the unemployed.