Public sector watch

[arp1]

I am quite sure you would agree though that you would much rather have a public service body looking after you as opposed to a privatised body looking out for number 1... Private sector police, fire, ambulance, army, nhs... I know what I would rather...

[SpeedMattersNot]

turbobloke said:

SpeedMattersNot said:

Do those figures tell the full story?

In the private sector, if I was unable to work due to illness, I could take the first 3 days as holiday pay (everyone I ever worked with would also do the same). So I would imagine this doesn't go down as a 'sick day'.

If my wife is off work in term time however, she doesn't have holiday days to consume in such a way.

Those figures tell the story of relative absence rates very clearly.

As to 'the full story' that could be interpreted as looking for excuses but I doubt you intended it to look that way

Various reasons have been put forward, including the generally more generous sick pay arrangements in the public sector, but that hardly helps to paint a better picture and none of the excuses help much. Even so if people want to view the situation through rose tinted specs there are ways of doing so. The numbers remain the same.

Isn't this stance a bit hypocritical of you? You spend hours a day dissecting numbers in relation to climate change, yet you're unwilling to do the same for this? I wonder where I may be trying to find reasons for the difference in sick day percentage, it rather suits you not to question this data.

turbobloke said:

arp1 said:

Just remember though that you cannot and should not tar all public service bodies with the same brush, much like you cannot say all private sector bodies are saints and they work till thy die and they are not workshy...

Indeed.

The differences that remain are that public sector services tend to involve no choice as they have a captive audience, and are fed by a steady flow of money from compulsory taxes rather than income achieved by competing for customers.

Again, it's not that simple. My wife's school has multiple rivals and it's all in the staffs interest to provide a good service to keep attendance high. And trust me, there isn't a steady flow of income, especially with the larger class sizes rolling into the schools and the money not being released until the students have gone through the year.

Private sector can also ramp the money up if they're being successful. The car dealership I worked for had a labour rate of £140+VAT and employed most of its mechanics on less than Kwik-Fit wages. The customer isn't getting a good deal - except those wearing rose tinted glasses of course

98elise said:

SpeedMattersNot said:

Do those figures tell the full story?

In the private sector, if I was unable to work due to illness, I could take the first 3 days as holiday pay (everyone I ever worked with would also do the same). So I would imagine this doesn't go down as a 'sick day'.

If my wife is off work in term time however, she doesn't have holiday days to consume in such a way.

I've never known anyone in the private sector to take holidays when sick. In fact at one place I was told I could claim back days if I fell ill during a holiday.

Try being self employed, you suddenly become much healthier. I've not had a sick day since starting on my own

Some of my friends in other jobs do get sick pay, but for the 4 companies I worked for at 7 different dealerships even if you had a doctors note you wouldn't be paid for the first 3 days of time off. Rather, be offered;

- To take them as holiday days.
- Make up time at weekends (which wasn't paid any extra per hour).
- Take it out of any future potential earnings.

[turbobloke]

SpeedMattersNot said:

turbobloke said:

SpeedMattersNot said:

Do those figures tell the full story?

In the private sector, if I was unable to work due to illness, I could take the first 3 days as holiday pay (everyone I ever worked with would also do the same). So I would imagine this doesn't go down as a 'sick day'.

If my wife is off work in term time however, she doesn't have holiday days to consume in such a way.

Those figures tell the story of relative absence rates very clearly.

As to 'the full story' that could be interpreted as looking for excuses but I doubt you intended it to look that way

Various reasons have been put forward, including the generally more generous sick pay arrangements in the public sector, but that hardly helps to paint a better picture and none of the excuses help much. Even so if people want to view the situation through rose tinted specs there are ways of doing so. The numbers remain the same.

Isn't this stance a bit hypocritical of you? You spend hours a day dissecting numbers in relation to climate change, yet you're unwilling to do the same for this?

From the post you replied to, surely you can see that I already did?

The relevant snip is 'various reasons have been put forward'.

One of the analyses spotted that the public sector employs more female staff overall compared to the private sector, then realised that this doesn't explain the difference as there is still a differential when gender is taken into account.

Private sector males percentage hours lost 1.5
Private sector females percentage hours lost 1.9

Public sector males percentage hours lost 2.0
Private sector females percentage hours lost 3.0

Personally I don't see how that does the public sector or female workers any favours but then I'm not wearing rose tinted public sector specs. Other angles don't explain anything away, they merely add detail as to how the public sector sickie rate significantly exceeds the private sector rate.

SpeedMattersNot said:

I wonder where I may be trying to find reasons for the difference in sick day percentage, it rather suits you not to question this data.

Your assumption that I haven't gone beyond the headline numbers is incorrect, as I already have - as per my comment above.

[Oakey]

http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/crime/benef...

Article said:

A council employee was put under surveillance when she was suspected of cheating the taxpayer.


Department for Work and Pensions (DWP)staff suspected her of playing the system she knew all too well – because she advised callers to the council.

Officers from the DWP followed mum-of-two Anita Cockbain as she worked at Wyre Council.

They discovered that rather than struggling to walk 50 yards in over five minutes using walking aids, the 43-year -old went at a rapid pace to buy sandwiches and coffee during her break from work giving telephone advice to callers.

Cockbain, of Kingston Close, Knott End, admitted two offences of fraud over her claims for Disabled Living Allowance – not telling the DWP her medical condition had improved. She also admitted two offences of failing to tell Wyre Council – her employer at the time – of a change in her circumstances which would have affected her claims for housing and council tax benefits.

Blackpool magistrates heard Cockbain had been summarily sacked from her post when legal proceedings started against her.

Adrian Hollamby, prosecuting, said that as a result of her cheating Cockbain had been overpaid £11,937.

He added:” The authorities involved are taking action to claw their money back. The claims cover a three-year period. In 2010 she should have told the authorities her physical capabilities had improved and she was no longer entitled to Disabled Living Allowance.

[Camoradi]

On the question of public sector sickness rates, there are areas of the public sector (civil service) where they get up to 12 days per annum of paid sick pay, after which their holiday entitlement is reduced for each day.

I have friends in this area of work who routinely take days off sick in November and December each year because they "have some sick days left" ie they haven't taken their full 12 days off sick that year. In some cases they take them by arrangement with line managers.

[Countdown]

Camoradi said:

On the question of public sector sickness rates, there are areas of the public sector (civil service) where they get up to 12 days per annum of paid sick pay, after which their holiday entitlement is reduced for each day.

I have friends in this area of work who routinely take days off sick in November and December each year because they "have some sick days left" ie they haven't taken their full 12 days off sick that year. In some cases they take them by arrangement with line managers.

Which area is this? I've worked in the Civil Service (Home Office) and have never come across anything like it.

[Burrow01]

Countdown said:

Camoradi said:

On the question of public sector sickness rates, there are areas of the public sector (civil service) where they get up to 12 days per annum of paid sick pay, after which their holiday entitlement is reduced for each day.

I have friends in this area of work who routinely take days off sick in November and December each year because they "have some sick days left" ie they haven't taken their full 12 days off sick that year. In some cases they take them by arrangement with line managers.

Which area is this? I've worked in the Civil Service (Home Office) and have never come across anything like it.

MOD civilians had this arrangement, not sure if its still in place

[Sheepshanks]

Burrow01 said:

Countdown said:

Camoradi said:

On the question of public sector sickness rates, there are areas of the public sector (civil service) where they get up to 12 days per annum of paid sick pay, after which their holiday entitlement is reduced for each day.

I have friends in this area of work who routinely take days off sick in November and December each year because they "have some sick days left" ie they haven't taken their full 12 days off sick that year. In some cases they take them by arrangement with line managers.

Which area is this? I've worked in the Civil Service (Home Office) and have never come across anything like it.

MOD civilians had this arrangement, not sure if its still in place

That seems odd - standard civil service is 6 months on full pay. In the bits of it my missus worked in they get told not to come in if they're ill (with colds etc) as they don't want the whole office wiped out.

They do start looking at people's record if they've had more than a certain number of days sick, so perhaps people switch holiday to stop that happening?

Edited by Sheepshanks on Wednesday 23 July 13:07

[Countdown]

Burrow01 said:

MOD civilians had this arrangement, not sure if its still in place

Where "sick leave" was part of their formal leave allocation???

I'm very surprised - for example it would distort HR's absence mgmt figures for a start. Did this replace the normal 6 months full pay 6 months half pay that most public sector get?

ETA based on what Camoradi said it looks like its INSTEAD of the normal scheme. So it looks like, in the HR reports, everybody takes 12 days sick leave.

[Burrow01]

Countdown said:

Burrow01 said:

MOD civilians had this arrangement, not sure if its still in place

Where "sick leave" was part of their formal leave allocation???

I'm very surprised - for example it would distort HR's absence mgmt figures for a start. Did this replace the normal 6 months full pay 6 months half pay that most public sector get?

ETA based on what Camoradi said it looks like its INSTEAD of the normal scheme. So it looks like, in the HR reports, everybody takes 12 days sick leave.

This was the effect - they were allowed so many days a year sick, and it became pretty normal to ensure they were all taken every year, whether you were actually sick or not. Not sure what happened if they took more than their "allocation"

[mph1977]

Countdown said:

Camoradi said:

On the question of public sector sickness rates, there are areas of the public sector (civil service) where they get up to 12 days per annum of paid sick pay, after which their holiday entitlement is reduced for each day.

I have friends in this area of work who routinely take days off sick in November and December each year because they "have some sick days left" ie they haven't taken their full 12 days off sick that year. In some cases they take them by arrangement with line managers.

Which area is this? I've worked in the Civil Service (Home Office) and have never come across anything like it.

not aware of anywhere in the public sector where sick pay works like that ... the usual moan about public sector sick pay id the maximum OSP of 6 mionths full and 6 months half pay ( after qualifying service and contrary to the rumours it's a rolling 12 months so you can't go back for a week and reset the clock ... )

[MentalSarcasm]

I'm wondering if there's a mix up here with the Bradford score? The public sector bit I work in uses this to monitor sickness absences.

In theory, yes you can call in a certain number of sick days a year and fly under HR's radar in terms of how much absence there is. Reach a certain level and then you get summoned in to meetings with HR and a manager and explain why you're off so often and back it up with Doctor's letters, some staff will no doubt work out where the line is and use it to boost their time off.

I'm sure it was more common back in the "glory days" of the public sector but I know our place has cracked down seriously on anything like that in recent years and it's probably far more difficult to get away with such activity now.

[IrateNinja]

Burrow01 said:

MOD civilians had this arrangement, not sure if its still in place

I've worked literally all over the country with MOD and have not come across this practice ever. You're spreading bks.

[StevoCally]

MentalSarcasm said:

I'm wondering if there's a mix up here with the Bradford score? The public sector bit I work in uses this to monitor sickness absences.

In theory, yes you can call in a certain number of sick days a year and fly under HR's radar in terms of how much absence there is. Reach a certain level and then you get summoned in to meetings with HR and a manager and explain why you're off so often and back it up with Doctor's letters, some staff will no doubt work out where the line is and use it to boost their time off.

I'm sure it was more common back in the "glory days" of the public sector but I know our place has cracked down seriously on anything like that in recent years and it's probably far more difficult to get away with such activity now.

Bradford score is used where I am, seems to have curbed the Monday / Friday sickies some staff pulled on a frequent basis with some deadwood going. Can tarnish those who are genuinely ill and need long periods off but that is where the HR and management need to show their abilities to differentiate between the two and follow the policies correctly.

I'm happy with my 3 days in 11 years, 1 of which was work related.

[Oakey]

Local Rag said:

More than 110,000 full time days were lost as people working for the North West Ambulance Service called in sick last year.


That’s out of a possible 1,677,324 full time days, giving the service a sickness absence rate of 6.6 per cent.

According to their website they employ circa 4900 people. That's 22 days each!

I wonder how this compares to similar sized organisations with these numbers of staff?

[kowalski655]

To be fair to them,not many other organisations of a similar size have to heave people in and out of ambulances,up & down stairs strapped to a stretcher,face drunken scumbags in fights,infected needles, etc. And as health workers probably are told to stay at home with even a sniffle in case they infect a patient.
However a lot will be sat in nice cosy offices rather than the frontline

[mph1977]

kowalski655 said:

To be fair to them,not many other organisations of a similar size have to heave people in and out of ambulances,up & down stairs strapped to a stretcher,face drunken scumbags in fights,infected needles, etc. And as health workers probably are told to stay at home with even a sniffle in case they infect a patient.
However a lot will be sat in nice cosy offices rather than the frontline

the ambulance service is comparitively good at the office dweller to service delivery numbers - but that is down to a couple of factors
- many managers are required to respond either to manager larger incidents or as extra RRVs or community responders resources at times of high pressure ( role depending on past history of beign road staff or other Health professional and also in some cases depending on fitness - I know one Ambulance service manager who was only allowed to respond at the community responder level as he couldn;t meet group two driver medical standards - other similar managers despite not being Health professionals either were sent on the IHCD driving course to be able to respond on blues


there are IPC reasons why health staff take more time off - such as the 2 days clear after D+V rule - where in a none healthcare workplace you can go back once you've stopped having conversdations with ralph and huey on porcelain telephone...

add in the moving and handling issues, violence against staff and RTCs ...

the mean absnce figure is also probably misleading - given you have the potential that a team / station could lose 2 members of staff for up to a year if they had a significant RTC while responding ...

although by their very nature some staff groups are room dwellers' i.e. control room staff - I don;t know how NWAS work but other services have often used agency staff for call taking and their own staff in comms are the dispatchers , managers and clinicla advisors

[turbobloke]

Passport fiasco workers get 3.5k bonuses while thousands of victims caught up in passport delays last summer get less than a ton on average for their troubles with the lowest compensation paid a measly quid

[mph1977]

Camoradi said:

On the question of public sector sickness rates, there are areas of the public sector (civil service) where they get up to 12 days per annum of paid sick pay, after which their holiday entitlement is reduced for each day.

I have friends in this area of work who routinely take days off sick in November and December each year because they "have some sick days left" ie they haven't taken their full 12 days off sick that year. In some cases they take them by arrangement with line managers.

As opposed to most of the public sector, where legal requirements ref: certification are followed and onerous attendance management policies are put in place which often ignore the requirements of the equality act ...

I presume you can provide proof of these assertions

[turbobloke]

mph1977 said:

Camoradi said:

On the question of public sector sickness rates, there are areas of the public sector (civil service) where they get up to 12 days per annum of paid sick pay, after which their holiday entitlement is reduced for each day.

I have friends in this area of work who routinely take days off sick in November and December each year because they "have some sick days left" ie they haven't taken their full 12 days off sick that year. In some cases they take them by arrangement with line managers.

As opposed to most of the public sector, where legal requirements ref: certification are followed and onerous attendance management policies are put in place which often ignore the requirements of the equality act ...

Thank heavens for some efforts to stem the public sector sickie tide.

ONS ‘Sickness absence in the Labour market – 2012' found a public sector sickie rate of 2.6% compared to the private sector 1.6% which is a lot of millions of days difference hiding behind small percentages.

The self-employed sickie rate at 1.2% is where both should be.