Explain Poll Tax to me...
Discussion
mondeoman said:
V8mate said:
blindswelledrat said:
Except it's not exactly accurate though is it?
Painting this picture of a scummy useless incompetent minority. Were you alive? It was half the population as my memory recalls. It wasn't a few workshy people marching against it, it was hundreds of thousands of working class people.
Really? My recollection is that it was just the 'scummy useless incompetent minority'. And a couple of pensioners.Painting this picture of a scummy useless incompetent minority. Were you alive? It was half the population as my memory recalls. It wasn't a few workshy people marching against it, it was hundreds of thousands of working class people.
Hardly "half the population"
Doesn't change the fact that it was most definitely not just scummy idiots who were demonstrating.
Grenoble said:
oyster said:
The Tories cocked up the poll tax. They made students pay it at 20%. It wasn't a lot of money (maybe £100 a year or so), but they were noisy, politically active and, above all, ready to protest and riot.
If they had exempted students I have no doubt that the poll tax would still be here today.
IIRC it wasn't the students that were central to the riots - it was the militant wings of various unions? The students joined in, but they weren't the central critical mass to the opposition.If they had exempted students I have no doubt that the poll tax would still be here today.
physprof said:
the fact it was tied to electoral register made it bureaucratically a nightmare to administer... back in day of old paper records recall .... in University areas and constituencies where people are moving tenancy frequently the whole system ground to a halt. couple that with active non-compliance and you get to this situation... http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/mobile/news/poll-tax... ..... so a great soci-economic experiment.
Yup - I agree. Elements were a good idea, but badly implemented as a whole.oyster said:
The Tories cocked up the poll tax. They made students pay it at 20%. It wasn't a lot of money (maybe £100 a year or so), but they were noisy, politically active and, above all, ready to protest and riot.
If they had exempted students I have no doubt that the poll tax would still be here today.
Poll tax was an excellent idea and the Tories didn't cock it up by making students pay it at 20%. Was it that many students rioted against it? Students didn't riot when Labour introduced university fees.If they had exempted students I have no doubt that the poll tax would still be here today.
Edited by Guybrush on Tuesday 9th April 13:09
Like all the other taxes.........
Someone else pays more - that’s fair
I have to pay more - that’s unfair
I have a cousin who said she couldn't afford to pay it - 6 weeks later, I got a postcard from her on holiday in the Bahamas..... extreme example – but there you go…
Good idea - badly implemented, especially using Scotland as the research project…
Someone else pays more - that’s fair
I have to pay more - that’s unfair
I have a cousin who said she couldn't afford to pay it - 6 weeks later, I got a postcard from her on holiday in the Bahamas..... extreme example – but there you go…
Good idea - badly implemented, especially using Scotland as the research project…
mondeoman said:
Not a biased Wikipedia article at all...
Guybrush said:
Poll tax was an excellent idea and he Tories didn't cock it up by making students pay it at 20%. Was it that many students rioted against it? Students didn't riot when Labour introduced university fees.
But they did riot when the tories altered the system so they would end up paying less if they earned lessHow odd
Its almost as if they didn't care about the changes but just wanted hammer the tory party
Now wheres virtually pointless?
blindswelledrat said:
REALIST123 said:
DJRC said:
voyds9 said:
Amused2death said:
the Poll tax was for individuals. Ended up with the anomoly of one person in a mansion paying less than a working couple in their rented home.
.
This was considered to be unfair even though the guy in the mansion was educated privately, carried private medical insurance and was generally little drain on resources..
Whereas the people using the services, the couple above who later had 2 kids, educated on the state, she didn't work but was on the social for stress thought and still think it was the rich peoples duty to pay their lifestyle.
The clever trick was going from the rates to poll tax back to council tax (rates under another name) and doubling the money taken on the two years it took to do this. The population were even grateful.
And this is what makes me so ragingly angry whenever this subject crops up (as I may have hinted at again in the Maggie thread yesterday which kicked off this latest thread). The useless, incompetent Poll Tax rioters lumbered us with the Council Tax which is basically just a glorified Rates, but at double the previous prices.
But hey, it was the principle that mattered. f
king morons.Painting this picture of a scummy useless incompetent minority. Were you alive? It was half the population as my memory recalls. It wasn't a few workshy people marching against it, it was hundreds of thousands of working class people.
And the claim that this resulted in the subsequent council tax doubling there rates is just completely incorrect. Not even based on anything.
Now then dear boy would you care to point out where I made mention of "scummy" anybody? Useless and incompetent were there, but scummy? Same again with "workshy". Oh and again with mentioning whether anybody was working or middle class? No such references to class were anywhere in my post.
I will though grant you I was using some licence to say it doubled the rates...it has of course vastly more than doubled. Quadroupled is more accurate I think.
With this in mind, please do tell me how those responsible for the current f
ked up situation were not infact "useless and incompetent"? So given that you are a contrary little sod, how would you like to argue this?
Edited by DJRC on Tuesday 9th April 13:18
Silver993tt said:
currently only 25% for sole occupier but this should really be 50%.
People in high value properties who've been there for a long time (20+ years) often can't afford the council tax rates. Often they have a small income. They should not be forced to move especially if they are elderly. The council tax system is extremely unfair. A council tax by individual would be much more appropriate.
Retirees in expensive properties are often those who earned well during their career, and don't depend on the state pension. A house which is expensive now will have been expensive then, frankly. It might be worth even more now, but then the council tax bands aren't based on the value now, but on the value on 1st April 1991 (https://www.gov.uk/council-tax-bands).People in high value properties who've been there for a long time (20+ years) often can't afford the council tax rates. Often they have a small income. They should not be forced to move especially if they are elderly. The council tax system is extremely unfair. A council tax by individual would be much more appropriate.
If you're in work and struggling to pay a council tax bill as the property you own is expensive, you might want to wonder why you bought the property in the first place... Rates would have been high for it when you did, and you probably have the option of downsizing (either by moving somewhere smaller, or to a cheaper location) if it's really too much. You're hardly going to be in negative equity if you've lived there that long!
DanL said:
Retirees in expensive properties are often those who earned well during their career, and don't depend on the state pension. A house which is expensive now will have been expensive then, frankly. It might be worth even more now, but then the council tax bands aren't based on the value now, but on the value on 1st April 1991 (https://www.gov.uk/council-tax-bands).
If you're in work and struggling to pay a council tax bill as the property you own is expensive, you might want to wonder why you bought the property in the first place... Rates would have been high for it when you did, and you probably have the option of downsizing (either by moving somewhere smaller, or to a cheaper location) if it's really too much. You're hardly going to be in negative equity if you've lived there that long!
My mum& dad bought their house for £6000 in 1970 (4-bed semi in London suburb). They didn't have a big income and had 3 kids, worked hard to buy that house. Role on 2007 and it was worth £480,000. My mum lived on her own with very little income and in the end had to sell and left the country as she couldn't afford to pay the council tax on the property. Nice soceity.If you're in work and struggling to pay a council tax bill as the property you own is expensive, you might want to wonder why you bought the property in the first place... Rates would have been high for it when you did, and you probably have the option of downsizing (either by moving somewhere smaller, or to a cheaper location) if it's really too much. You're hardly going to be in negative equity if you've lived there that long!
Property values went up hugely over the last 30 years, causing many to have huge council tax bills they can't afford. Many in that situation, particularly older people.
Edited by Silver993tt on Tuesday 9th April 13:33
Silver993tt said:
My mum lived on her own with very little income and in the end had to sell and left the country as she couldn't afford to pay the council tax on the property. Nice soceity.
Property values went up hugely over the last 30 years, causing many to have huge council tax bills they can't afford. Many in that situation, particularly older people.
My parents had a different experience, and are still in the UK...Property values went up hugely over the last 30 years, causing many to have huge council tax bills they can't afford. Many in that situation, particularly older people.
I have trouble believing that anyone on a low income and struggling to pay council tax wouldn't qualify for the council tax reduction scheme, but I'm happy to believe that your Mum's experience as described is true. Well, not happy to hear she's had to move, but you know what I mean!
Guybrush said:
oyster said:
The Tories cocked up the poll tax. They made students pay it at 20%. It wasn't a lot of money (maybe £100 a year or so), but they were noisy, politically active and, above all, ready to protest and riot.
If they had exempted students I have no doubt that the poll tax would still be here today.
Poll tax was an excellent idea and the Tories didn't cock it up by making students pay it at 20%. Was it that many students rioted against it? Students didn't riot when Labour introduced university fees.If they had exempted students I have no doubt that the poll tax would still be here today.
Edited by Guybrush on Tuesday 9th April 13:09
Even then there were demonstrations by students against it.
Edited by youngsyr on Tuesday 9th April 13:51
DanL said:
My parents had a different experience, and are still in the UK...
I have trouble believing that anyone on a low income and struggling to pay council tax wouldn't qualify for the council tax reduction scheme, but I'm happy to believe that your Mum's experience as described is true. Well, not happy to hear she's had to move, but you know what I mean!
She emigrated from a Mediterranean country in 1960 to the UK. In 2007 she went back and now she has an apartment. No local or council tax, rubbish collected 6 days a week except Sundays etc. She wished she had done it years earlier.I have trouble believing that anyone on a low income and struggling to pay council tax wouldn't qualify for the council tax reduction scheme, but I'm happy to believe that your Mum's experience as described is true. Well, not happy to hear she's had to move, but you know what I mean!
Silver993tt said:
he emigrated from a Mediterranean country in 1960 to the UK. In 2007 she went back and now she has an apartment. No local or council tax, rubbish collected 6 days a week except Sundays etc. She wished she had done it years earlier.
Sounds like a recipe for economic disaster.Silver993tt said:
he emigrated from a Mediterranean country in 1960 to the UK. In 2007 she went back and now she has an apartment. No local or council tax, rubbish collected 6 days a week except Sundays etc. She wished she had done it years earlier.
So how is it paid for? Income tax? Direct fee? youngsyr said:
... that's because the sneaky Bar Stewards made it only apply from a couple of years in the future - i.e. current students wouldn't pay it, only those children who were currently 15 years old or younger and who didn't even know for sure that they would go to university were affected.
Even then there were demonstrations by students against it.
THIS.Even then there were demonstrations by students against it.
One of the most 'impressive' things New Labour did was introduce unpopular things 'in the tax year 2015/16 we will..." so no one really paid too much attention to it at the time until it was too late by which time it was all a fait accompli.
I well remember the Poll Tax. Married, one son and in the largest house I could afford (remember property was the key to your financial future then). Our next door neighbor, an elderly lady in a similar house benefited with a large reduction in taxation, I enjoyed a small reduction and the remaining properties in our street all had to contribute more as they had 2 or 3 children of voting age living at home.
It made perfect sense to me then, and now I am that bit older living in an even larger house with just my wife it would make perfect sense now.
FFS pay for what you use.
It made perfect sense to me then, and now I am that bit older living in an even larger house with just my wife it would make perfect sense now.
FFS pay for what you use.
Rude-boy said:
youngsyr said:
... that's because the sneaky Bar Stewards made it only apply from a couple of years in the future - i.e. current students wouldn't pay it, only those children who were currently 15 years old or younger and who didn't even know for sure that they would go to university were affected.
Even then there were demonstrations by students against it.
THIS.Even then there were demonstrations by students against it.
One of the most 'impressive' things New Labour did was introduce unpopular things 'in the tax year 2015/16 we will..." so no one really paid too much attention to it at the time until it was too late by which time it was all a fait accompli.
I suppose they were right to an extent, it wasn't gradually increased, but increased in great chunks.
e600 said:
I well remember the Poll Tax. Married, one son and in the largest house I could afford (remember property was the key to your financial future then). Our next door neighbor, an elderly lady in a similar house benefited with a large reduction in taxation, I enjoyed a small reduction and the remaining properties in our street all had to contribute more as they had 2 or 3 children of voting age living at home.
It made perfect sense to me then, and now I am that bit older living in an even larger house with just my wife it would make perfect sense now.
FFS pay for what you use.
Problem is that Thatcher's conception failed on at least 3 out of 4 of Adam Smith 'canons of taxation" It made perfect sense to me then, and now I am that bit older living in an even larger house with just my wife it would make perfect sense now.
FFS pay for what you use.
Not equal... discussed ad nausea
Certainty.... given it was tied to council areas/priorities/needs there would be uncertainty/variability etc
Economy of collection.... needs no further comment.
and so it became another example of political dogma .... '...the lady is not for turning....' etc etc.. and she/they didn't have grace to admit it was a shambles. So despite all the puff she had about adam smith she didn't exactly put what she claimed to have learned and been inspired by into practice...
Anyways, that was a lifetime ago... best forgotten.
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