Women and senior management
Discussion
I have a theory on this and it is partly to do with prejudice.
Management generally requires a particular type of mentality. The person needs to be approachable, confident, direct, clear, concise and steadfast. Obviously that isn't a 'must have' list, but you'll find most managers will have these traits in varying levels.
When a male has these traits, it's fine. We're used to seeing men in charge, the pack leader, the alpha male etc. We have it ingrained into our mentality. Daddy is head of the house, God/Allah/90% of other religious figures are depicted as male, nature reflects this also to an extent.
People being managed are fine with this. We expected a manager to have these traits and, in men, it is seen as an attractive/positive behaviour.
For women it is completely different. Women are supposed to be 'subservient' and that is how society use to depict them. This is still subconsciously burned into the back of our minds, even if we don't truly believe it. Therefore, when a woman is displaying the traits of a manager, it can 'annoy' her male subordinates. Strong, driven women also have a tendency to overcompensate, which can make them appear more aggressive even though they are just attempting to gain respect for their position.
Some women make it, Thatcher, Hilary Devey, Sherilyn S. McCoy, Jacqueline Gold etc, so women are perfectly capable of being managers but it will take time before it is seen as completely 'normal'.
My 2 pence worth anyway...
Management generally requires a particular type of mentality. The person needs to be approachable, confident, direct, clear, concise and steadfast. Obviously that isn't a 'must have' list, but you'll find most managers will have these traits in varying levels.
When a male has these traits, it's fine. We're used to seeing men in charge, the pack leader, the alpha male etc. We have it ingrained into our mentality. Daddy is head of the house, God/Allah/90% of other religious figures are depicted as male, nature reflects this also to an extent.
People being managed are fine with this. We expected a manager to have these traits and, in men, it is seen as an attractive/positive behaviour.
For women it is completely different. Women are supposed to be 'subservient' and that is how society use to depict them. This is still subconsciously burned into the back of our minds, even if we don't truly believe it. Therefore, when a woman is displaying the traits of a manager, it can 'annoy' her male subordinates. Strong, driven women also have a tendency to overcompensate, which can make them appear more aggressive even though they are just attempting to gain respect for their position.
Some women make it, Thatcher, Hilary Devey, Sherilyn S. McCoy, Jacqueline Gold etc, so women are perfectly capable of being managers but it will take time before it is seen as completely 'normal'.
My 2 pence worth anyway...
Edited by The Beaver King on Thursday 11th April 10:51
Fittster said:
V8mate said:
In over 25 years in the workplace, I have worked in both the private and public sector; I have worked in environments from small family businesses through to FTSE100 companies and huge corporations.
And across all those experiences, I have never come across a woman competent in a role above that of 'doing stuff'. There. I've said it.
Have you met men doing senior stuff who were incompetent? And across all those experiences, I have never come across a woman competent in a role above that of 'doing stuff'. There. I've said it.
But my experience is not just about senior management/board level people; I've not come across a credible female at any level who has more responsibility than what's in front of her.
V8mate said:
Fittster said:
V8mate said:
In over 25 years in the workplace, I have worked in both the private and public sector; I have worked in environments from small family businesses through to FTSE100 companies and huge corporations.
And across all those experiences, I have never come across a woman competent in a role above that of 'doing stuff'. There. I've said it.
Have you met men doing senior stuff who were incompetent? And across all those experiences, I have never come across a woman competent in a role above that of 'doing stuff'. There. I've said it.
But my experience is not just about senior management/board level people; I've not come across a credible female at any level who has more responsibility than what's in front of her.
I am really biting my fingers here not to write something insulting to this post, which I found very offensive - you really think that women are incapable of doing a senior management role?
Well I don't agree and think you are completely wrong and sorry you have such a misguided view of women
Blue Cat said:
V8mate said:
Fittster said:
V8mate said:
In over 25 years in the workplace, I have worked in both the private and public sector; I have worked in environments from small family businesses through to FTSE100 companies and huge corporations.
And across all those experiences, I have never come across a woman competent in a role above that of 'doing stuff'. There. I've said it.
Have you met men doing senior stuff who were incompetent? And across all those experiences, I have never come across a woman competent in a role above that of 'doing stuff'. There. I've said it.
But my experience is not just about senior management/board level people; I've not come across a credible female at any level who has more responsibility than what's in front of her.
I am really biting my fingers here not to write something insulting to this post, which I found very offensive - you really think that women are incapable of doing a senior management role?
Well I don't agree and think you are completely wrong and sorry you have a misguided view of women
V8mate said:
Blue Cat said:
V8mate said:
Fittster said:
V8mate said:
In over 25 years in the workplace, I have worked in both the private and public sector; I have worked in environments from small family businesses through to FTSE100 companies and huge corporations.
And across all those experiences, I have never come across a woman competent in a role above that of 'doing stuff'. There. I've said it.
Have you met men doing senior stuff who were incompetent? And across all those experiences, I have never come across a woman competent in a role above that of 'doing stuff'. There. I've said it.
But my experience is not just about senior management/board level people; I've not come across a credible female at any level who has more responsibility than what's in front of her.
I am really biting my fingers here not to write something insulting to this post, which I found very offensive - you really think that women are incapable of doing a senior management role?
Well I don't agree and think you are completely wrong and sorry you have a misguided view of women
So you DO think that women are incapable of doing a senior management role.
Blue Cat said:
V8mate said:
Blue Cat said:
V8mate said:
Fittster said:
V8mate said:
In over 25 years in the workplace, I have worked in both the private and public sector; I have worked in environments from small family businesses through to FTSE100 companies and huge corporations.
And across all those experiences, I have never come across a woman competent in a role above that of 'doing stuff'. There. I've said it.
Have you met men doing senior stuff who were incompetent? And across all those experiences, I have never come across a woman competent in a role above that of 'doing stuff'. There. I've said it.
But my experience is not just about senior management/board level people; I've not come across a credible female at any level who has more responsibility than what's in front of her.
I am really biting my fingers here not to write something insulting to this post, which I found very offensive - you really think that women are incapable of doing a senior management role?
Well I don't agree and think you are completely wrong and sorry you have a misguided view of women
So you DO think that women are incapable of doing a senior management role.
I don't THINK that all women managers are incapable; I know them to be incapable within the bounds of my experience. That is all and hence my question.
I have worked in public sector both local government and civil service. I have also spent most of my time in private sector. They are all different, with respect to women, TBH if they get into senior positions in the private sector its because they deliver. This means if they are there for a while they are just as competent as anyone and as someone said often paid less. In the public sector they are appointed for political reasons, men are discriminated against and they are usually crap at their job, but so are the men anyway. In fairness though the women are usually really really crap. This is why everything the public sector does is crap from road humps to rubbish schools. Lets face it they couldn't manage a piss up in a brewery.
As for the moron Cable he is in a league of his own. How it is possible to get a PHD in economics and know so little of how the world works is frankly astonishing. Quotas will do a great deal of harm if introduced. They are a very silly idea, hence championed by a lib dum. The lib dum ideas bucket is pretty much a barometer of stupidity and insanity. Perhaps it also highlights the non issues of today. IE if the lib dums are worried about it, it probably doesn't matter. Lets face it the problem is the FTSE 100 contains almost no manufacturers, therefore no wealth creation merely redistribution. This is what needs to change and putting women on the board is about as useful as wind farms and solar panels in the North of England
As for the moron Cable he is in a league of his own. How it is possible to get a PHD in economics and know so little of how the world works is frankly astonishing. Quotas will do a great deal of harm if introduced. They are a very silly idea, hence championed by a lib dum. The lib dum ideas bucket is pretty much a barometer of stupidity and insanity. Perhaps it also highlights the non issues of today. IE if the lib dums are worried about it, it probably doesn't matter. Lets face it the problem is the FTSE 100 contains almost no manufacturers, therefore no wealth creation merely redistribution. This is what needs to change and putting women on the board is about as useful as wind farms and solar panels in the North of England
V8mate said:
And across all those experiences, I have never come across a woman competent in a role above that of 'doing stuff'. There. I've said it.
I have just over half your experience in industry (13 years), but in that time I have met numerous women who are hugely competent - many more so than their male peers - in management roles, at executive level and with strategic responsibilities. Immediate examples that spring to mind - my current manager is female, and one with formidable intellect at that. Her manager, at director level, is also hugely competent (and doing a much better job than the 2 male previous incumbents of her role).I feel sorry that you've had such limited and disappointing experiences with women (in the workplace!
) 
Every time a senior manager - male usually agrees to promote an upcoming young thruster "because the experience will be good for them" the deny the kind of stretching challenge which makes great leaders later in the career.
This stuff is deeply ingrained. As chaps we often in early careers get thrown a pile of rope and told to get knitting. Women, far less often. Not sure why - but without those experiences it can be difficult to really demonstrate capability.
There are several highly capable execs in my business, all of whom oppose quotas as they beieve they and future female leaders will be seen as tokenist appointments rather than meritorious.
Rovinghawk said:
If they're good enough then they'll get there on merit. If not, then they don't deserve to be there & shouldn't be there as part of a quota.
'Positive' discrimination is exactly as bad as the 'negative' sort.
No, it isn't. I think we need to have 50% of board members of the top 500 companies in the UK from British Chinese backgrounds irrespective of experience and ability. 'Positive' discrimination is exactly as bad as the 'negative' sort.
I think there are certain types of people (male and occasionally female too) who struggle with the concept of women in senior management, in the same way as they struggle with very young people in similar roles (the latter of which I have experience of).
These sorts are generally also the kind who, where they have any negotation to do, are 'escalators' - always thinking they should be dealing with the top person - which IME is a trait of people who have some kind of inferiority issue.
Women are perfectly capable, but prejudice still exists and management in many firms is severely dysfunctional, even in 'successful' businesses.
These sorts are generally also the kind who, where they have any negotation to do, are 'escalators' - always thinking they should be dealing with the top person - which IME is a trait of people who have some kind of inferiority issue.
Women are perfectly capable, but prejudice still exists and management in many firms is severely dysfunctional, even in 'successful' businesses.
I have worked in many industries. I have to say one of the best senior managers / directors I have worked with was a woman [retail banking]...very capable and inspiring.
The best people in my team in my last 3 roles have all been relatively young women... 2 of whom I promoted and who took on lots more responsibility.
My worst bosses have all been men.
However, the absolutely most difficult colleagues to work with [banking] were a couple of senior women who were extremely manipulative, devious, political and undermined colleagues in other teams [they were loathed by everyone ]
The best people in my team in my last 3 roles have all been relatively young women... 2 of whom I promoted and who took on lots more responsibility.
My worst bosses have all been men.
However, the absolutely most difficult colleagues to work with [banking] were a couple of senior women who were extremely manipulative, devious, political and undermined colleagues in other teams [they were loathed by everyone ]
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