Owen Jones v the Princes; who has served the country most?
Discussion
He's another one of those conceited, self-righteous, self-appointed guardian of moral values ("As a socialist, I am compelled to have an optimistic view of humanity, to believe we are not all motivated by greed, selfishness or hate")
Which implies that anyone who doesn't share his vision of a Socialist Utopia is greedy, selfish, and hateful. And which conveniently overlooks the moot point that the most murderous people of the 20th Century were Socialists* - if you consider that Socialists and bedroom revolutionaries like Jones are really polite Communists
Which implies that anyone who doesn't share his vision of a Socialist Utopia is greedy, selfish, and hateful. And which conveniently overlooks the moot point that the most murderous people of the 20th Century were Socialists* - if you consider that Socialists and bedroom revolutionaries like Jones are really polite Communists
- Stalin, Lenin, Chavez, Pol Pot, Mao, Kim II Sung, Hi Chi Minh, Nicolae Ceausescu, Mengistu Haile Mariam etc.
andymadmak said:
No I have not contradicted myself. And I am not saying he is a liar because I disagree with his politics, I am saying he is a liar because he is a liar. I could also say that he is the sort of person who blames those who work for him when he is exposed as a liar because that is precisely what he has done. I could also say that he is a hypocrite because having blamed his colleagues for his own lies he then continues to repeat the lie. Really, to say that OJ creates value in the way that you assert would be like saying that an arsonist adds value by raising awareness of fire safety issues!
Right, but you've based your accusation of him being a liar on one factual inaccuracy in an entire book. Whether that was a typo or bad research I don't know, but I don't think that justifies complete blanket denial of everything he has ever said.If we were all a bunch of herd-followers then we would be in serious trouble. People like OJ are important as they voice concerns that others might not be aware of, or prepared to talk about.
CamMoreRon said:
Right, but you've based your accusation of him being a liar on one factual inaccuracy in an entire book. Whether that was a typo or bad research I don't know, but I don't think that justifies complete blanket denial of everything he has ever said.
If we were all a bunch of herd-followers then we would be in serious trouble. People like OJ are important as they voice concerns that others might not be aware of, or prepared to talk about.
Not quite. If it was a genuine error, as he claims, (and blamed his publisher - which was nice!) why does he continue to repeat the claim? I put it to you that the reason why he continues is because it was not an error, but a deliberate, cynical manipulation of the facts designed to poison the debate and add otherwise non existent weight to his viewpoint. The trouble is that whether it is a lie or a manipulation can be debated, but once it is exposed, it definitely becomes a lie by his continued use of it. If we were all a bunch of herd-followers then we would be in serious trouble. People like OJ are important as they voice concerns that others might not be aware of, or prepared to talk about.
Liars like OJ are most certainly not important. I will listen to an honest man of any political viewpoint all day long. Liars are not worth dirtying my ears with.
Edited to add: We expect politicians to lie. Indeed, we almost have reached the point where we cannot believe that they do anything other than lie to us. This is bad for democracy because I actually think that many (not all) politicians of all colours are fairly decent people trying to do a difficult job. Some lie to us for personal gain, some lie because they take the view that the electorate simply cannot handle the truth. (The Jack Nicholson logic)
I'd contend that people like OJ make the situation infinitely worse through their own lies. People want to believe them, want to believe the hyperbole, want to believe that the only way is the way they espouse, the only facts the ones which they present. Many people are hungry for the truth, but when people like OJ pass themselves off as the source of that truth whilst engaging in the same lies as the politicians they are attacking then it makes if far more difficult for the decent folk to be heard - especially if their message is not one that the likes of OJ et al want people to hear.
Edited by andymadmak on Wednesday 22 October 14:15
andymadmak said:
crankedup said:
His an entrepreneur doing well for himself, sort of a Capitalist I suppose.
No. He is no entrepreneur. What investment has he made? What risk has he taken? What exactly has he created of any value? No doubt he is doing well for himself, which is really what he is all about. That does not make him a Capitalist either, since he does not appear to invest his wealth in trade or industry. So that just leaves "noisy vitriolic hysterical hyperbolic lying bigoted rabble rousing leftist nonentity" which I think is a far more accurate summation of the man.
He is self employed.
Paid for television appearances.
Paid to write newspaper columns.
Published two books.
He earns money by airing his POV on politics and Social effects from Government Policies.
That is a entrepreneur and Capitalist, he set himself up in business and is earning money from his business.
richie99 said:
longblackcoat said:
Why? You have an opinion, backed by the assertions of a man who runs a right-wing think-tank and believes that the happiest people are the most religious whilst ignoring that the Nordics, some of the happiest and most content people on earth, are some of the least religiously observant.
In short, I think he's talking b
ks.
Happiness also accompanied by the highest suicide rates. Strange kind of contentment. In short, I think he's talking b
ks.crankedup said:
I'm not here to defend the man, he would be quite capable to do that in here if he so chose. But I would take issue with your assertion that he is not an entrepreneur.
He is self employed.
Paid for television appearances.
Paid to write newspaper columns.
Published two books.
He earns money by airing his POV on politics and Social effects from Government Policies.
That is a entrepreneur and Capitalist, he set himself up in business and is earning money from his business.
I suppose it depends on your definitions of entrepreneur and capitalist. To my mind none of the above qualifies OJ as either of those things. We can agree to disagree though. He is self employed.
Paid for television appearances.
Paid to write newspaper columns.
Published two books.
He earns money by airing his POV on politics and Social effects from Government Policies.
That is a entrepreneur and Capitalist, he set himself up in business and is earning money from his business.
andymadmak said:
Not quite. If it was a genuine error, as he claims, (and blamed his publisher - which was nice!) why does he continue to repeat the claim? I put it to you that the reason why he continues (to lie)..
Edited to add: We expect politicians to lie. Indeed, we almost have reached the point where we cannot believe that they do anything other than lie to us. This is bad for democracy because I actually think that many (not all) politicians of all colours are fairly decent people trying to do a difficult job. Some lie to us for personal gain, some lie because they take the view that the electorate simply cannot handle the truth. (The Jack Nicholson logic)
I'd contend that people like OJ make the situation infinitely worse through their own lies. People want to believe them, want to believe the hyperbole, want to believe that the only way is the way they espouse, the only facts the ones which they present. Many people are hungry for the truth, but when people like OJ pass themselves off as the source of that truth whilst engaging in the same lies as the politicians they are attacking then it makes if far more difficult for the decent folk to be heard - especially if their message is not one that the likes of OJ et al want people to hear.
Where has he continued the "lie" though? Am I missing something?Edited to add: We expect politicians to lie. Indeed, we almost have reached the point where we cannot believe that they do anything other than lie to us. This is bad for democracy because I actually think that many (not all) politicians of all colours are fairly decent people trying to do a difficult job. Some lie to us for personal gain, some lie because they take the view that the electorate simply cannot handle the truth. (The Jack Nicholson logic)
I'd contend that people like OJ make the situation infinitely worse through their own lies. People want to believe them, want to believe the hyperbole, want to believe that the only way is the way they espouse, the only facts the ones which they present. Many people are hungry for the truth, but when people like OJ pass themselves off as the source of that truth whilst engaging in the same lies as the politicians they are attacking then it makes if far more difficult for the decent folk to be heard - especially if their message is not one that the likes of OJ et al want people to hear.
Don't you see that the same can be said of the establishment and its defenders? People on both sides are guilty of confirmation bias, it is not something that is exclusive to Owen's readership. People believe in the side they have taken - usually that happens first, and confirmation of those beliefs is sought by finding sources of information that they agree with. You could say orators of both sides are lying to the people, but it's probably more likely they're simply selecting truths that suit their beliefs and discounting those that don't.
I don't believe for one second that it's the right who are right and the "lefty socialists" wrong. I think you have to be very careful what you believe at the moment.. there seems to be an air of dissent growing amongst those who read away from the mainstream media and Owen is part of that source (although most notably publishing with the Guardian). TTIP will likely pass because not enough people are prepared to read in to it, but hopefully in the future people will be a little better informed because of people like him and future democratic violations may be stopped.
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