Abortion - time for a new debate?
Discussion
dundarach said:
Murder - "The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=murder+definitio...
As soon as it's going - it's human...might be terribly disabled, but it's human. it might die it's self, mother could reject, could be any number of other things, however it's human.
The definition is very clear.......
Now should we terminate (murder) some of these foetuses for very sensible reasons - thankfully I've never been faced with this, we didn't even have the tests, however - yes probably.
But call it what it is!
Let's call it what it is then: child destruction although then only if it is capable of being born alive, and that means stay alive.As soon as it's going - it's human...might be terribly disabled, but it's human. it might die it's self, mother could reject, could be any number of other things, however it's human.
The definition is very clear.......
Now should we terminate (murder) some of these foetuses for very sensible reasons - thankfully I've never been faced with this, we didn't even have the tests, however - yes probably.
But call it what it is!
Further, consider the offence of child destruction, one for which no woman has been imprisoned, nor to my knowledge even prosecuted.
So, just to clarify, it is not murder.
dundarach said:
How hard is this discussion...
If you kill something that otherwise would have lived and it's human - then it's murder
Now once you've excepted this (as there is no other answer, as if you didn't get involved it would have been born alive) then we can have a discussion.
So yes, abortion is murder simple
The question is:
Should murder be legal in some situations - and in which ones?
The modern world has unfortunately given mankind the impression that obvious things, things which are brutal and nasty, are no longer such.
[python]If you kill something that otherwise would have lived and it's human - then it's murder
Now once you've excepted this (as there is no other answer, as if you didn't get involved it would have been born alive) then we can have a discussion.
So yes, abortion is murder simple
The question is:
Should murder be legal in some situations - and in which ones?
The modern world has unfortunately given mankind the impression that obvious things, things which are brutal and nasty, are no longer such.
Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great.
Should a sperm be wasted, God gets quite irate.
[/python]
dundarach said:
How hard is this discussion...
If you kill something that otherwise would have lived and it's human - then it's murder
Now once you've excepted this (as there is no other answer, as if you didn't get involved it would have been born alive) then we can have a discussion.
So yes, abortion is murder simple
The question is:
Should murder be legal in some situations - and in which ones?
The modern world has unfortunately given mankind the impression that obvious things, things which are brutal and nasty, are no longer such.
So you believe every rape victim who has a termination is also a murderer then? Boy that child's really going to grow up well adjusted and feeling wanted.If you kill something that otherwise would have lived and it's human - then it's murder
Now once you've excepted this (as there is no other answer, as if you didn't get involved it would have been born alive) then we can have a discussion.
So yes, abortion is murder simple
The question is:
Should murder be legal in some situations - and in which ones?
The modern world has unfortunately given mankind the impression that obvious things, things which are brutal and nasty, are no longer such.
Nice to see open minded viewpoints still exist...
dundarach said:
MarshPhantom said:
How can you murder something that hadn't been born yet?
See my definition - does it only become human once the fresh air hits it - no.It's obvious human from the start isn't it!
Why do people find it so hard to at least call it what it is - then discuss the truth.
You can call it a flaming orange - fact is, without the abortion a human would be born
king is murder...dundarach said:
It's obvious human from the start isn't it!
I don't believe so, no. It's an embryo which has the potential to become a human life. There are all sorts of things which could happen to that embryo (both natural and via intervention) before if reaches a status of a human life.In my opinion until the baby is capable of surviving outside of the mother unaided, it is a foetus, not a fully formed human life. As far as I'm aware, murder laws do not apply to foetuses and therefore abortion is not murder, per se. The period at which an abortion should be allowed to be performed is a whole different discussion.
And before you accuse me of being heartless, this is from a guy whose wife is 19 weeks pregnant and who spend Sunday evening listening to the heartbeat of my unborn child, so I don't take this topic lightly.
oyster said:
Babies can survive being born at 22 weeks yet the law still allows them to be terminated at that point. That isn't right.
They may survive but they almost certainly won't thrive, some of the issue is that hospitals love to be the best and saving the miracle 22week baby sells well the follow up rarely happens so the child may die early or never catch up. dundarach said:
How hard is this discussion...
If you kill something that otherwise would have lived and it's human - then it's murder
Now once you've excepted this (as there is no other answer, as if you didn't get involved it would have been born alive) then we can have a discussion.
So yes, abortion is murder simple
The question is:
Should murder be legal in some situations - and in which ones?
The modern world has unfortunately given mankind the impression that obvious things, things which are brutal and nasty, are no longer such.
The thing is that this is a very hard discussion. To look at it from one side only is not to put an argument forward.If you kill something that otherwise would have lived and it's human - then it's murder
Now once you've excepted this (as there is no other answer, as if you didn't get involved it would have been born alive) then we can have a discussion.
So yes, abortion is murder simple
The question is:
Should murder be legal in some situations - and in which ones?
The modern world has unfortunately given mankind the impression that obvious things, things which are brutal and nasty, are no longer such.
The pregnant woman has a point of view.
What part of The Abortion Act do you think is wrong:
Section 1(1) of the Abortion Act 1967:
In England and Wales and Scotland, section 1(1) of the Abortion Act 1967 now reads:
A person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith -
(a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or
(b) that the termination of the pregnancy is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or
(c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated
(d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.
The time limit is open for discussion at any time and there have been suggestions that it be taken back to 22 weeks.
Apart from sub-section (d), in essence the question is if you think it is wrong to risk the heath of the woman by continuing with a pregnancy.
As for (d), many people feel this is wrong.
The problem, what makes this 'hard' is that sometimes you have to accept that there is no nice answer, no solution that allows us to go to bed with a clear conscience. Sometimes life is a choice between two nasty things. We have had a recent case in Eire which shows that when there is a choice, just washing one's hands of the decision is not really a mature option.
I don't want to get into the semantics over 'is this viable' as, frankly, I haven't a clue what is...
What I cannot get my head around is the 'requirement' to abort nearly 12,000 foetus' every month...
They cannot all be a) product of criminal sex crime (can they?), b) odds-on medically affected so as to mitigate against an enjoyable life, c) potential off-spring of chavvy underclass unsuited to child rearing (current assessment of benefits recipients would suggest not)...
People, it's 380 odd per day we're terminating. Surely that is too many?
What I cannot get my head around is the 'requirement' to abort nearly 12,000 foetus' every month...
They cannot all be a) product of criminal sex crime (can they?), b) odds-on medically affected so as to mitigate against an enjoyable life, c) potential off-spring of chavvy underclass unsuited to child rearing (current assessment of benefits recipients would suggest not)...
People, it's 380 odd per day we're terminating. Surely that is too many?
dundarach said:
Murder - "The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=murder+definitio...
I've underlined the bit you need to address. You're arguing against yourself at the moment.SpeckledJim said:
I've underlined the bit you need to address. You're arguing against yourself at the moment.
I'm not arguing, I'm putting across my point, I'm not trying to convince anyone.I am however happy that if I take a life, which without my intervention, would otherwise be born human and alive, is quite obviously murder.
Now as I've stated, there might be a reason as to why we might choose to kill the child, but lets use the right words.
We are killing babies - yes they are not cute and wrapped in knitted cardigans - but without the intervention they would be.
As for rape, it must be terrible, however yes, if they did not abort, then yes a baby would arrive and yes it'd be cute and yes they could wrap it those same cardigans.
The question is still - when is it human, I think obviously from the moment the egg and sperm meet.
Otherwise when?
BliarOut said:
That's my second point, which I will address as soon as you've answered my first...
Should rape victims be forced to carry an unwanted baby to full term?
A rape victim should have the choice, it's her body, never EVER have I suggested that abortion should NOT happen...Should rape victims be forced to carry an unwanted baby to full term?
All I said was lets not sugar coat it, it is what it is - the killing of a human, intentionally, which is obviously murder?!?
dundarach said:
BliarOut said:
That's my second point, which I will address as soon as you've answered my first...
Should rape victims be forced to carry an unwanted baby to full term?
A rape victim should have the choice, it's her body, never EVER have I suggested that abortion should NOT happen...Should rape victims be forced to carry an unwanted baby to full term?
All I said was lets not sugar coat it, it is what it is - the killing of a human, intentionally, which is obviously murder?!?
dundarach said:
BliarOut said:
That's my second point, which I will address as soon as you've answered my first...
Should rape victims be forced to carry an unwanted baby to full term?
A rape victim should have the choice, it's her body, never EVER have I suggested that abortion should NOT happen...Should rape victims be forced to carry an unwanted baby to full term?
All I said was lets not sugar coat it, it is what it is - the killing of a human, intentionally, which is obviously murder?!?
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