Why are we "Ring Fencing" Foreign Aid?

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ClaphamGT3 said:

Where do you think money for public services comes from, the fairies? The magic tree at the bottom of the garden?

We fund our public services from the tax that businesses and individuals pay. The Govt supporting UK businesses to trade overseas seems like the best way of shoring up your world to me.

AIUI the bulk of tax revenue comes from Income Tax, NI, and VAT which is paid mainly by individuals, not businesses.

[ClaphamGT3]

Countdown said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

Where do you think money for public services comes from, the fairies? The magic tree at the bottom of the garden?

We fund our public services from the tax that businesses and individuals pay. The Govt supporting UK businesses to trade overseas seems like the best way of shoring up your world to me.

AIUI the bulk of tax revenue comes from Income Tax, NI, and VAT which is paid mainly by individuals, not businesses.

Read my post - "businesses and individuals"

[Mojocvh]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Mojocvh said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

Elroy Blue said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

.... Meanwhile, back in the real world, things aren't that simple - if only they were.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/smilies.htm

You mean back in YOUR world. The one I live in us falling apart because the Gov would rather spend £14 billion in bribes for the benefit if shareholders

Where do you think money for public services comes from, the fairies? The magic tree at the bottom of the garden?

We fund our public services from the tax that businesses and individuals pay. The Govt supporting UK businesses to trade overseas seems like the best way of shoring up your world to me.

You need hard figures to convince many.

Nah - most smart people get it.

So you are posting an opinion as factual, with nothing to substantiate your views, yes.

As has been pointed out to you, before,

"You mean back in YOUR world. The one I live in us falling apart because the Gov would rather spend £14 billion in bribes for the benefit if shareholders"

just about sums it up.

[ClaphamGT3]

Doing nothing of the kind - you haven't really got the hang of this reading thing, have you?

[nightflight]

It's all bribe money. Without it, UK companies would lose out now, and in the future.

[einsign]

nightflight said:

It's all bribe money. Without it, UK companies would lose out now, and in the future.

Only large companies would lose out. Those with the biggest voice but represent the fewest of us.

[nightflight]

It's all bribe money. Without it, UK companies would lose out now, and in the future.

[Jasandjules]

nightflight said:

It's all bribe money. Without it, UK companies would lose out now, and in the future.

So then have the companies that benefit pay ?

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ClaphamGT3 said:

Doing nothing of the kind - you haven't really got the hang of this reading thing, have you?

me neither

I fully understand how Govt spending can increase growth/GDP (multiplier effect). Not sure how foreign aid can be anywhere near as effective as domestic spending purely because of the leakage effects.

Just because it benefits your business doesn't mean it;s good for UK plc as a whole.

[ClaphamGT3]

einsign said:

Only large companies would lose out. Those with the biggest voice but represent the fewest of us.

I disagree. From experience, many SMEs benefit; either directly or indirectly as a result of being in the supply chain of large companies

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ClaphamGT3 said:

einsign said:

Only large companies would lose out. Those with the biggest voice but represent the fewest of us.

I disagree. From experience, many SMEs benefit; either directly or indirectly as a result of being in the supply chain of large companies

Unless foreign companies spend 100% of aid they receive in the UK, there is a net loss to the UK economy.

[einsign]

ClaphamGT3 said:

From experience

I own an SME and export around 25%. I want out of it all.

I wish people would just stop making things up, it is damaging our country!

[ClaphamGT3]

I too own an SME, we do about 55 - 60% of our business overseas. We would not want to see the UK pull out of overseas aid and business support, although I can think of ways the FCO and BiS could be more effective.

[Elroy Blue]

The private companies (and individuals) that make the most from foreign 'aid' are also those that got to stupendous lengths to avoid actually paying any tax. So, this 'they support you' nonsense is just that, nonsense.

I'm all for disaster relief and food aid, but NOT to line the pockets of company directors, Government ministers and their cronies.

(But those of us with that view are all ignorant and illiterate apparently)

[ClaphamGT3]

Elroy Blue said:

The private companies (and individuals) that make the most from foreign 'aid' are also those that got to stupendous lengths to avoid actually paying any tax. So, this 'they support you' nonsense is just that, nonsense.

So all the companies and individuals linked to overseas aid are all trying to avoid paying ANY tax?! That's quite a big statement - let's see your evidence to substantiate it.

[Countdown]

What I don't understand is why UK companies are unable to compete against other producers solely on the strength of their products and instead appear to require State support?

[Elroy Blue]

ClaphamGT3 said:

So all the companies and individuals linked to overseas aid are all trying to avoid paying ANY tax?! That's quite a big statement - let's see your evidence to substantiate it.

Nice attempt at trying to swerve the issue. I expect nothing less and you are at least consistent. BAE, like many other large companies are well known for using every avenue possible to avoid paying tax. Legal, maybe. Ethical, definitely not.

But please stop with the pathetic attempts at stating that the proceeds from 'aid' come back and benefit the general public.

[ClaphamGT3]

Elroy Blue said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

So all the companies and individuals linked to overseas aid are all trying to avoid paying ANY tax?! That's quite a big statement - let's see your evidence to substantiate it.

Nice attempt at trying to swerve the issue. I expect nothing less and you are at least consistent. BAE, like many other large companies are well known for using every avenue possible to avoid paying tax. Legal, maybe. Ethical, definitely not.

But please stop with the pathetic attempts at stating that the proceeds from 'aid' come back and benefit the general public.

Except the reality is that they do. I know you won't like it because it challenges one of your rather autistic 'certainties' in life but, as I've said before, where do you think the money to fund the public sector comes from, if not from business?

As for swerving the issue, I'm loving your irony!

By the way, a few stats for you;

Bae employ 42,000 people in the UK. The UK business has net revenues of £9bn and exports of £5bn (£3.3bn net). They and their employees pay £653m in tax. That's just one organisation; why would we want to make them less competitive or cause them to move their operations to a more supportive jurisdiction?

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ClaphamGT3 said:

Except the reality is that they do. I know you won't like it because it challenges one of your rather autistic 'certainties' in life but, as I've said before, where do you think the money to fund the public sector comes from, if not from business?

Without any evidence to show how foreign aid impacts upon exports it's impossible to say whether the benefits exceed the costs. That assuming there ARE any benefits

ClaphamGT3 said:

Bae employ 42,000 people in the UK. The UK business has net revenues of £9bn and exports of £5bn (£3.3bn net). They and their employees pay £653m in tax. That's just one organisation; why would we want to make them less competitive or cause them to move their operations to a more supportive jurisdiction?

How much of the exports were dependent on foreign aid? All? Some? None?

[ClaphamGT3]

Countdown said:

How much of the exports were dependent on foreign aid? All? Some? None?

There you get to one of the key issues around this. The private sector organisations that generate business of the back of Govt trade support focus on tracking the impact of this support for their organisation, but the Govt doesn't really do so effectively at rolled up initiative level.

We are currently working with the cabinet office who are trying to get to grips with this and utilise knowledge management to track benefit delivered for intervention at a tactical level and decide what intervention should be made and where on a strategic level. This doesn't just relate to overseas aid but all govt intervention in the private sector. I agree with you insofar as the time when the real benefit of Govt initiatives can be measured can't come soon enough.