Hitler discusses the legal aid reforms
Discussion
Not many barristers practising criminal law on legal aid have lavish London lifestyles. The rates are low and getting lower. You may be thinking of us lot in the civil litigation world, who are paid almost entirely by private sector clients, and do OK for the most part. We aren't on strike, but most of us sympathise with the legal aid Bar's campaign against the current changes, which are not merely tackling inefficiency but risking access to justice. I don't do legal aid cases, but am still owed money from when I last did, over ten years ago, when there was a bit more civil legal aid than there is now. That's the system, and slow payment added to low rates makes the work a bit marginal.
Breadvan72 said:
That's the system, and slow payment added to low rates makes the work a bit marginal.
Sounds like a simple case of too much supply and not enough demand. If you don't think you can make a living at it then do something else. People want the high status jobs so everyone and his dog trains for the same high status profession which pushes wages/rates down. When a Tesco shelf stacker or hospital arse wiper comes on here and complains they earn nowt, all of the PH professionals scoff at them, remind them how hard they worked at university and tell them to get a better paying job. So if all you law people are so clever and employable why haven't you figured the basic economics out for yourselves and why don't you go and retrain?
Nobody dreams of going into law as a child, people just do it for the cash.
Many people become lawyers for cash alone, but not all. I became a barrister because I wanted to make a difference. I was seduced by cash later, and like money as much as anyone, but I still do a fair chunk of pro bono work. I am not unusual in this. I know some lawyers who work vocationally for peanuts. I admire them, but it's not for me.
I agree that there are too many lawyers in the UK, but in legal aid work there is not a real market. By contrast, in private sector work, there is a real market, and this has produced rates which, to my mind, are too high. Us lot at the upper end of the profession are often overpaid. The people at the bottom are often underpaid.
I agree that there are too many lawyers in the UK, but in legal aid work there is not a real market. By contrast, in private sector work, there is a real market, and this has produced rates which, to my mind, are too high. Us lot at the upper end of the profession are often overpaid. The people at the bottom are often underpaid.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 3rd January 08:56
Breadvan72 said:
Many people become lawyers for cash alone, but not all. I became a barrister because I wanted to make a difference. I was seduced by cash later, and like money as much as anyone, but I still do a fair chunk of pro bono work. I am not unusual in this. I know some lawyers who work vocationally for peanuts. I admire them, but it's not for me.
I agree that there are too many lawyers in the UK, but in legal aid work there is not a real market. By contrast, in private sector work, there is a real market, and this has produced rates which, to my mind, are too high. Us lot at the upper end of the profession are often overpaid. The people at the bottom are often underpaid.
One of my friends became a Barrister in Criminal Law, it's what she wanted to do and I'm sure it's an interesting job, she said anyone who wants to do it now would be mad to pick being a Barrister over a Solicitor if that's the field you want to get into, so much so that she has cross qualified.I agree that there are too many lawyers in the UK, but in legal aid work there is not a real market. By contrast, in private sector work, there is a real market, and this has produced rates which, to my mind, are too high. Us lot at the upper end of the profession are often overpaid. The people at the bottom are often underpaid.
Edited by Breadvan72 on Friday 3rd January 08:56
Hi Breadvan may I take you aside & off topic ...
My young daughter(15) has wants to be a Corporate Lawyer ,she has to find a company in Bristol that will take her on for 1 weeks work experience next July. She would like to work for Osbourne Clarks in Bristol & approached them, they told her she was too young & come back when she is 19+ ? My question too you do you know of a law firm in Bristol that might help her, the school is useless and have left her to it!
My young daughter(15) has wants to be a Corporate Lawyer ,she has to find a company in Bristol that will take her on for 1 weeks work experience next July. She would like to work for Osbourne Clarks in Bristol & approached them, they told her she was too young & come back when she is 19+ ? My question too you do you know of a law firm in Bristol that might help her, the school is useless and have left her to it!
Fifteen is far too young to want to be a lawyer, or indeed pretty much anything, except maybe an astronaut, Rock God, Bond Villain, etc.
No commercial law firm is likely to offer work experience to someone so young, and internships for those of university age are competitive.
Serious advice to your daughter: consider doing a subject other than law at university. Don't do A level law. Study traditional academic subjects at A level and choose the degree subject that is most interesting to you and in which you are likely to do well. Choose a law degree if you wish, but expect very hard work. Aim for a Russell Group University, have fun, but work for at least a 2:1. Try to experience different types of law in practice. Corporate law can be grindingly tedious, and junior solicitors in smart law firms live the lives of slaves with big pay packets.
No commercial law firm is likely to offer work experience to someone so young, and internships for those of university age are competitive.
Serious advice to your daughter: consider doing a subject other than law at university. Don't do A level law. Study traditional academic subjects at A level and choose the degree subject that is most interesting to you and in which you are likely to do well. Choose a law degree if you wish, but expect very hard work. Aim for a Russell Group University, have fun, but work for at least a 2:1. Try to experience different types of law in practice. Corporate law can be grindingly tedious, and junior solicitors in smart law firms live the lives of slaves with big pay packets.
PS: One of the barristers' chambers in Bristol might say yes, but, frankly, the Bristol Bar is not of the best quality, in my opinion (apols to any Bristol barristers reading this, as there are of course many exceptions). Law firms: maybe try Bevan Brittan or Burges Salmon or Meade King, but I think that they may all say no to a fifteen year old.
I'll send you all a photo from Gray's Inn Chambers car park on Monday; who would like to take a guess at the types of cars I will capture?
I hear that the top 20 highest earning Legal Aid Barristers in 2012-13 will be being published in the daily mail shortly, even though some of them claimed it would be against their human rights! Would have included what they earn't from the CPS if it was not for the incredibly poor quality of that organisations data.
I hear that the top 20 highest earning Legal Aid Barristers in 2012-13 will be being published in the daily mail shortly, even though some of them claimed it would be against their human rights! Would have included what they earn't from the CPS if it was not for the incredibly poor quality of that organisations data.
Edited by PlankWithANailIn on Friday 3rd January 20:06
No one suggests that many lawyers do not earn well and buy posh cars, but the criminal bar sports fewer flash motors than the civil. Gray's Inn is occupied by smart civil sets, for the most part. Quite a few criminal sets have moved to cheaper offices outside the Inns of Court.
From the figures, check whether earned over one year or more. Deduct 30-40% from the figure for expenses. Then deduct tax and NI from what's left to arrive at take home pay.
From the figures, check whether earned over one year or more. Deduct 30-40% from the figure for expenses. Then deduct tax and NI from what's left to arrive at take home pay.
http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/5039260.article?utm_so...
£4.5m fraud case downgraded after bar refuses fee rates
£4.5m fraud case downgraded after bar refuses fee rates
Grayling moves the goalposts. After contracting to pay VHCC rates, he decided to cut those rates by 30%. Now a case that was classed as a VHCC is reclassified as an ordinary case. 100,000 pages of evidence to read, but no promise by MoJ to pay for more than 10,000 pages.
Another example - GANGBO injunction, an order restricting the civil liberties of some blokes who have not been convicted of crimes, on the basis of suspected gang membership. Legal aid declines to pay for lawyers to prep the case, saying they can do it on the hoof at court. Result, no lawyers, and the blokes, who may or may not be scrotes but have not been proven scrotey, have to represent themselves against a publicly funded team of three counsel and the legal department of a large local authority.
PH says, so what, but what if it was your silly but non criminal nephew who hangs out with the Saxo gang down by Lidl?
Am I professionally affected by any of this? Not at all. Do I GAF? Yes, I do, but as a citizen, not as a lawyer.
Another example - GANGBO injunction, an order restricting the civil liberties of some blokes who have not been convicted of crimes, on the basis of suspected gang membership. Legal aid declines to pay for lawyers to prep the case, saying they can do it on the hoof at court. Result, no lawyers, and the blokes, who may or may not be scrotes but have not been proven scrotey, have to represent themselves against a publicly funded team of three counsel and the legal department of a large local authority.
PH says, so what, but what if it was your silly but non criminal nephew who hangs out with the Saxo gang down by Lidl?
Am I professionally affected by any of this? Not at all. Do I GAF? Yes, I do, but as a citizen, not as a lawyer.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 3rd January 20:26
'Access to justice is a fundamental feature of any society committed to the rule of
law. It is not a service which the State provides at cost, but an element of the
State and its governance essential to the rule of law and the operation of a free
market economy. The State is therefore under a duty to provide effective access
to justice irrespective of the State’s ability to secure full-cost recovery.'
http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Document...
law. It is not a service which the State provides at cost, but an element of the
State and its governance essential to the rule of law and the operation of a free
market economy. The State is therefore under a duty to provide effective access
to justice irrespective of the State’s ability to secure full-cost recovery.'
http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Document...
ks, which you'll see at first hand if you have to pay private rates to defend yourself and only get legal aid rates back when you're acquitted.gerradiuk said:
Breadvan ,thank you for your advice,its appreciated 
All BV's advice is sound. If your daughter wants any more info or experiences then I'm a corporate solicitor who trained relatively recently (qual 2008) with Allen and Overy in the City.Do feel free to drop me a line.
XCP said:
Indeed. Only the rich or the very poor can afford lawyers. Those of us in the middle have no chance.
True and it seems the rich can become poor to get legal aid, Standard fraudster .Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff