Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 3]

[Andy Zarse]

turbobloke said:

Digga said:

Walford said:

Crafty_ said:

e. Besides, its taken years to get to this point, I can't see everyone just giving up on the idea.

Nine years from birth in 1999 to crash in 2008

Sadly, it was a bd son, begat of equally suspect parentage. The project was shoehorned through the various, perfunctory checks and diligence, in very short order, to fulfill the desire for empire of the political (mostly socialist) elite. In time, it will be reflected upon as yet another example of failure for the planned economy theorists.

The very real problem is, as much as no one wishes to throw the baby out with the bath water, something which is built on shaky foundations is often best demolished and re-built. Looking at things the other way around, if the EU is a fk up, how can the people who screwed it up be the right ones to fix it? How many chances do you give people on such a magnificently important task?

Well put. Also there's no reason for us to hang around watching the dodgy architects at work while paying over the odds for a slice of their action.

Bravo indeed!

How long should we hang around? Hopefully only until the Scottish question is settled, the scots being rather more EU minded than the English. A Yes vote would surely help an Out vote.

Happily the result is being announced on my birthday... hopefully the best present ever

Edited by Andy Zarse on Monday 8th September 08:26

[Digga]

Andy Zarse said:

until the Scottish question is settled, the scots being rather more EU minded than the English. A Yes vote would surely help an Out vote.

Slightly O/T, but it intrigues me how people who are so very pro-EU are, at the same time, against the continued unity of the UK.

[Andy Zarse]

Digga said:

Andy Zarse said:

until the Scottish question is settled, the scots being rather more EU minded than the English. A Yes vote would surely help an Out vote.

Slightly O/T, but it intrigues me how people who are so very pro-EU are, at the same time, against the continued unity of the UK.

I know, but it's a start... At least they are now stopping to consider the most important question of all; what is in the best interests of England!

[turbobloke]

Andy Zarse said:

Digga said:

Andy Zarse said:

until the Scottish question is settled, the scots being rather more EU minded than the English. A Yes vote would surely help an Out vote.

Slightly O/T, but it intrigues me how people who are so very pro-EU are, at the same time, against the continued unity of the UK.

I know, but it's a start... At least they are now stopping to consider the most important question of all; what is in the best interests of England!

But will that approach catch on in time with CMD?

[DJRC]

It is a very sad that the breakup of the most successful political union in world history should be regarded as a "good thing" You must forgive me gentlemen but even regarding it as a probable short to medium term boost for England I find the notion to be utterly miserable. It staggers me beyond belief that the political leadership of the UK can be so incompetent that they can even allow a man so limited as Wee Eck to be a challenge. But then again it staggers me that Scotland and the Scottish tolerate such a thing. Not so very long ago they would kicked the st out him as soon as he opened his gob. How the hell can a nation that has punched above its weight for so long and contributed so much to the material physical economic philosophical and human wealth to the bloody country have allowed themselves to be reduced to the Godawful socialist parasitic state is it now in? Perhaps they are merely emblematic of a wider UK malaise. We have fallen far and if our leadership continues to be of the likes of CMD Ed Clegg and unfortunately Farage these days then we will fall much much further. A country that exists on fear and negativity will never prosper and that's all uk politics offers now. Hell it's pretty much all European politics offers.

[LongQ]

Digga said:

lightly O/T, but it intrigues me how people who are so very pro-EU are, at the same time, against the continued unity of the UK.

Cognitive dissonance combined with various forms of tribalism, clubism and a normal human reaction to being overseen and told what to do (so we don't have to think about it ourselves) whilst harbouring an intense dislike of such control by those far enough up the chain of command to fall outside the concept of tribal or club intimacy.

Salmond is playing a vanity game. Typical of politicians who wish to leave legacies that others have to clean up when they are gone. The European Project model. If Westminster has any bottle (or can exhibit any learning ability) they will copy the EU model and "encourage" the people to re-take the membership exam until they get the correct answer.

Until then, anyone for an Independent England?

[Mermaid]

LongQ said:

Until then, anyone for an Independent England?

Independent London could thrive.

[markcoznottz]

DJRC said:

It is a very sad that the breakup of the most successful political union in world history should be regarded as a "good thing" You must forgive me gentlemen but even regarding it as a probable short to medium term boost for England I find the notion to be utterly miserable. It staggers me beyond belief that the political leadership of the UK can be so incompetent that they can even allow a man so limited as Wee Eck to be a challenge. But then again it staggers me that Scotland and the Scottish tolerate such a thing. Not so very long ago they would kicked the st out him as soon as he opened his gob. How the hell can a nation that has punched above its weight for so long and contributed so much to the material physical economic philosophical and human wealth to the bloody country have allowed themselves to be reduced to the Godawful socialist parasitic state is it now in? Perhaps they are merely emblematic of a wider UK malaise. We have fallen far and if our leadership continues to be of the likes of CMD Ed Clegg and unfortunately Farage these days then we will fall much much further. A country that exists on fear and negativity will never prosper and that's all uk politics offers now. Hell it's pretty much all European politics offers.

Gobsmacked that a minnow like salmond can cause so much grief. Could the establishment not have done a 'dr Kelley' (allegedly), and 'dissapeared' the tt?.

[Einion Yrth]

markcoznottz said:

Gobsmacked that a minnow like salmond can cause so much grief. Could the establishment not have done a 'dr Kelley' (allegedly), and 'dissapeared' the tt?.

Great idea if you fancy a civil war.

[markcoznottz]

Einion Yrth said:

Great idea if you fancy a civil war.

Surely someone could have had a 'quiet word' at the time he started to get momentum going. Before this chancer got involved it was just an idea but no one seemed to believe it would happen. The startling conclusion is that Westminster, or the scots that seem to control Westminster, wanted it to happen, because let's face it, things like this don't just 'happen'.

[Andy Zarse]

DJRC said:

It is a very sad that the breakup of the most successful political union in world history...

You don't think other countries, say the USA or Germany, might disagree with that one?

Having said that, yes I do find it a bit melancholic that there's possible be a forthcoming divorce. Putting it into matrimonial terms, sadly Scotland has become fat, lazy and ugly. She just sits around on the sofa all day, smoking Mayfair, eating pizza and doing online bingo. She needs a huge makeover, a kick up the arse and a big change of lifestyle. Her self-image problems and insecurities have lead to these silly threats to leave the husband, who, quite frankly, has had a gutful of her attention seeking behaviour...

I suppose a trial separation is out of the question?

[LongQ]

markcoznottz said:

Einion Yrth said:

Great idea if you fancy a civil war.

Surely someone could have had a 'quiet word' at the time he started to get momentum going. Before this chancer got involved it was just an idea but no one seemed to believe it would happen. The startling conclusion is that Westminster, or the scots that seem to control Westminster, wanted it to happen, because let's face it, things like this don't just 'happen'.

It's probably because politically Westminster has naff all to do that means anything these days. But they have to be seen to be doing something. Giving one thing away, saving another, solving a crisis. All things that make people feel self important and have their PR teams fulminating about how important they are. It's just Theatre.

Barrosso will be free to act as a corrective consultant come January. I'm sure he can sort it out should it not go to Westminster's plan.

Whether that means forcing another referendum until they people give the correct answer or welcoming Scotland into the Eurozone as quickly as possible is another matter.

So, financially, where would Scotland fit into the Euro hierarchy?

[Troubleatmill]

LongQ said:

So, financially, where would Scotland fit into the Euro hierarchy?

At the top table. - Attributed to Alex Salmond when speaking to the EU.

[Steffan]

DJRC said:

It is a very sad that the breakup of the most successful political union in world history should be regarded as a "good thing" You must forgive me gentlemen but even regarding it as a probable short to medium term boost for England I find the notion to be utterly miserable. It staggers me beyond belief that the political leadership of the UK can be so incompetent that they can even allow a man so limited as Wee Eck to be a challenge. But then again it staggers me that Scotland and the Scottish tolerate such a thing. Not so very long ago they would kicked the st out him as soon as he opened his gob. How the hell can a nation that has punched above its weight for so long and contributed so much to the material physical economic philosophical and human wealth to the bloody country have allowed themselves to be reduced to the Godawful socialist parasitic state is it now in? Perhaps they are merely emblematic of a wider UK malaise. We have fallen far and if our leadership continues to be of the likes of CMD Ed Clegg and unfortunately Farage these days then we will fall much much further. A country that exists on fear and negativity will never prosper and that's all uk politics offers now. Hell it's pretty much all European politics offers.

I entirely agree. One of the political pygmies entirely self seeking and self interested and self serving st in Scottish politics who has only ever been in this nonsense for what thy can get out of it.it. Something of a tragedy that the political philosophy involved (Socialim) that produced the likes of Kear Hardie and Aneurin Bevan before the WW2 has produced the self serving sts, like Tony Blair, Ed Milliband (the well known brother back stabber on the way to success), Yvette Cooper, Ed Balls and so on in the last fifty years.

As Hollande is painfully demonstrating in France such sts are not only found in the UK. Socialism has become the philosophy of envy and the self seeking politicians engaged therein seek huge personal gain and could not care less who pays because their position and success are paramount. I also agree that the collapse of the EU would indeed be an absolute tragedy which unfortunately is becoming very difficult to avoid. But it is a tragedy and many of the frreedoms of movement and trade that this enterprise has hepled to create have been highly beneficial to all the states. No one should underestimate the serious damage that will occur if the EU continues whith this impossible economic nonsense. The UK has nothing to gain by wishing this disaster upon the EU. And a great deal to lose.

However the EU is trying to maintain insolvent sovereign states by printing money and lending this to the insolvent states, which requires the insolvent states to undertake more loans and therefore increases their insolvency. Much as I would like there to be easy answers to the resultant hopelessly insolvent states being unable to sustain membership of a currency dominated and forced higher and higher by Germany it is simply not possible.

To paraphrase the words of Mr Holmes "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth, Watson" and that remains just a true today as it did all those years ago. Unless the EU actually admit and address the issues of the currency difficulties and the wholly unsustainable failing Sovereign states this must end in disaster. In which case collapse must be the only resolution. I do not like this any more that every other observer. But the dishonesty in this process is transparent. The EU and Draghi are gambling Billions on an unsustainable currency union. I cannot see how this can be continued because the circumstances of the failing states requires changes to the structure. Plastic money may buy time but it cannot solve the fundamental problems.

Edited by Steffan on Monday 8th September 19:03

[Mermaid]

Scotland without the oil lottery?

[DJRC]

Andy Zarse said:

DJRC said:

It is a very sad that the breakup of the most successful political union in world history...

You don't think other countries, say the USA or Germany, might disagree with that one?

Having said that, yes I do find it a bit melancholic that there's possible be a forthcoming divorce. Putting it into matrimonial terms, sadly Scotland has become fat, lazy and ugly. She just sits around on the sofa all day, smoking Mayfair, eating pizza and doing online bingo. She needs a huge makeover, a kick up the arse and a big change of lifestyle. Her self-image problems and insecurities have lead to these silly threats to leave the husband, who, quite frankly, has had a gutful of her attention seeking behaviour...

I suppose a trial separation is out of the question?

Well, er...no. The Yanks have only existed for 250 yrs and forged a nation at roughly the same time, so there was no history of entities coming together. Even Pax Americana can be said to have lasted only roughly 60 yrs.The Germans? Er, definitely no. Tried for two empires, lost both times and haven't even managed to put a country together in one piece for 100 yrs at a time yet, hmm I don't think they have managed to keep a country in one piece for 50 yrs at a time yet! The British political Union is over 300 yrs old and in that time forged the greatest empire the world has ever seen, launched more human improvement revolutions than in the entire previous amount of human history combined , fought and won two world wars to preserve democracy. The only other mob who could mount a protest vote are the Romans. Somebody more cynical than I would point out that the Romans also encountered the West Lothian problem and decided the simplest answer was a pair of bloody big walls.

[DJRC]

It is something I find highly aggravating amongst the Kippers Steffan that they cannot and wilfully refuse to see the positives of migration. The freedom of movement of people around Europe has had such a vast positive effect upon the social acceptance of the European community that it can only be by utter myopic fear and patheticness that such benefit cannot be seen. The instant and unclose ability to see that actually most of us ARE all the same has done more to foster a sense of peace upon and within Europe than anything and everything else combined. To lose this will be a calamity of colossal proportions and it should be fought for at all costs.

The rest of the crap of the EU should be jettisoned at all costs for it is destructive and unwanted by pretty much everybody of every nationality you care to meet in Europe.

How depressing that not a single party or it seems politician can even be bothered making the case for optimism these days. The closest we have to that ironically enough is Wee bloody Eck!

[jogon]

DJRC said:

It is something I find highly aggravating amongst the Kippers Steffan that they cannot and wilfully refuse to see the positives of migration. The freedom of movement of people around Europe has had such a vast positive effect upon the social acceptance of the European community that it can only be by utter myopic fear and patheticness that such benefit cannot be seen. The instant and unclose ability to see that actually most of us ARE all the same has done more to foster a sense of peace upon and within Europe than anything and everything else combined. To lose this will be a calamity of colossal proportions and it should be fought for at all costs.

The rest of the crap of the EU should be jettisoned at all costs for it is destructive and unwanted by pretty much everybody of every nationality you care to meet in Europe.

How depressing that not a single party or it seems politician can even be bothered making the case for optimism these days. The closest we have to that ironically enough is Wee bloody Eck!

Very quaint. But do you think these people would have emigrated to the UK if their own economies had been performing better.

[s2art]

DJRC said:

It is something I find highly aggravating amongst the Kippers Steffan that they cannot and wilfully refuse to see the positives of migration.

Its unconstrained/unmanaged immigration that we kippers object to. Nowt wrong with bringing in the needed and the best, lots wrong with not knowing what to plan for.

[jogon]

While Giles, Tarquin and Jonty board their business BA flight to Geneva to start their busy financial based job we look forward to Mo, Saeed and Aasif to safely arrive on the back of a lorry from Calais to begin their life on benefits.