Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 3]
Discussion
Steffan said:
The Greek government is thinking on its feet and playing for the best advantage with the EU. The difficulty IMO is that Greece cannot afford to repay these loans.
The possible advantage the Greek government has is that it can do this working through a small group of people responding instantly to events of the day.The EU cannot. (Or rather cannot without setting up another dictatorial internal sub group that excludes most of the members.)
Torpedo boat vs battle group and who is best working the smoke screen.
craig7l said:
What's the odds that Greece will still be using the euro jan 2016..?
Will Greece Exit The Eurozone In 2015?No - 1/4
Yes - 5/2
http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/european-polit...
OT, but on the subject of debt, and what can be done with the political will...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/...
:-)
Interesting and informative article from Gavin Hewitt of the BBC:
See http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31082656
At least it's not from Robert Peston which will please some.
Very thin line for Greece on this I think. I would suggest that whatever the Greeks and the EU actually agree the reality is that the Greek debt is far too large for the Greeks to be able to actually repay this. Given the state of the significant diminution in the Greek economy I think this is wholly impractical dreamland economics. Another cobbled unsuccessful mishmash of absolute refusal to face facts,. Keeps things rolling around a bit longer but I cannot see any real progress in this matter. Default seems to me to be the only practical solution. Unwelcome indeed a dreadful reality. But the Greek government itself has made the very point. The debt is unaffordable. Nothing can change this fact. No easy answers.
See http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31082656
At least it's not from Robert Peston which will please some.
Very thin line for Greece on this I think. I would suggest that whatever the Greeks and the EU actually agree the reality is that the Greek debt is far too large for the Greeks to be able to actually repay this. Given the state of the significant diminution in the Greek economy I think this is wholly impractical dreamland economics. Another cobbled unsuccessful mishmash of absolute refusal to face facts,. Keeps things rolling around a bit longer but I cannot see any real progress in this matter. Default seems to me to be the only practical solution. Unwelcome indeed a dreadful reality. But the Greek government itself has made the very point. The debt is unaffordable. Nothing can change this fact. No easy answers.
craig7l said:
What's the odds that Greece will still be using the euro jan 2016..?
I'd say it's highly likely.The "end is nigh" fraternity have been wrong for the last three years and they'll probably be wrong in 2015 as well. Why? Because their only plan is for Greece to jump out of the frying pan into the fire - and my money says even the Greeks aren't daft enough to do that.
Claudia Skies said:
craig7l said:
What's the odds that Greece will still be using the euro jan 2016..?
I'd say it's highly likely.The "end is nigh" fraternity have been wrong for the last three years and they'll probably be wrong in 2015 as well. Why? Because their only plan is for Greece to jump out of the frying pan into the fire - and my money says even the Greeks aren't daft enough to do that.
Steffan said:
Interesting and informative article from Gavin Hewitt of the BBC:
See http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31082656
At least it's not from Robert Peston which will please some.
Very thin line for Greece on this I think. I would suggest that whatever the Greeks and the EU actually agree the reality is that the Greek debt is far too large for the Greeks to be able to actually repay this. Given the state of the significant diminution in the Greek economy I think this is wholly impractical dreamland economics. Another cobbled unsuccessful mishmash of absolute refusal to face facts,. Keeps things rolling around a bit longer but I cannot see any real progress in this matter. Default seems to me to be the only practical solution. Unwelcome indeed a dreadful reality. But the Greek government itself has made the very point. The debt is unaffordable. Nothing can change this fact. No easy answers.
Steffan, Greece's debt can't ever be repaid. Those who lent the money knew this at the point of extending credit.See http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31082656
At least it's not from Robert Peston which will please some.
Very thin line for Greece on this I think. I would suggest that whatever the Greeks and the EU actually agree the reality is that the Greek debt is far too large for the Greeks to be able to actually repay this. Given the state of the significant diminution in the Greek economy I think this is wholly impractical dreamland economics. Another cobbled unsuccessful mishmash of absolute refusal to face facts,. Keeps things rolling around a bit longer but I cannot see any real progress in this matter. Default seems to me to be the only practical solution. Unwelcome indeed a dreadful reality. But the Greek government itself has made the very point. The debt is unaffordable. Nothing can change this fact. No easy answers.
It's no longer (and probably wasn't ever) about Greece's debt, it's about control. And power. And politics. And the salaries enjoyed (and the machine created to ensure control) at the Euro taxpayer's expense.
It's a clusterfuk of the highest order.
But you know what? It's starting to unravel, and, as these things have a way of doing, it'll be the smallest trigger that causes the biggest bang.
I think I just heard a 'click' somewhere softly in the distance.
And if not this time...
Actually, despite the collective intellectual genius (and I'm not being facetious here) of Draghi et al, I think it IS this time. Too many people trying to force their will on too many people; history shows it doesn't work in the long term.
Pull up a chair....
Andy Zarse said:
Claudia Skies said:
craig7l said:
What's the odds that Greece will still be using the euro jan 2016..?
I'd say it's highly likely.The "end is nigh" fraternity have been wrong for the last three years and they'll probably be wrong in 2015 as well. Why? Because their only plan is for Greece to jump out of the frying pan into the fire - and my money says even the Greeks aren't daft enough to do that.
And it's with my regret that even under the very extreme circumstance of the people of Greece voting for a mandate that doesn't suggest a clear severance that both sides of the argument will merge to a situation that pacifes short termism.
Edited by craig7l on Monday 2nd February 00:29
If it isn't Syriza this time, it will be Podemos next time or Le Pen or UKIP.
The politics of the EU are unraveling, simply because the economics haven't delivered.
Spain and Italy are still running above 30% youth unemployment.
The only objective the Euro Currency can really have been said to have achieved is to cement the Germans as the pre eminent economic power in Europe.
The politics of the EU are unraveling, simply because the economics haven't delivered.
Spain and Italy are still running above 30% youth unemployment.
The only objective the Euro Currency can really have been said to have achieved is to cement the Germans as the pre eminent economic power in Europe.
tumble dryer said:
Steffan, Greece's debt can't ever be repaid. Those who lent the money knew this at the point of extending credit.
It's no longer (and probably wasn't ever) about Greece's debt, it's about control. And power. And politics. And the salaries enjoyed (and the machine created to ensure control) at the Euro taxpayer's expense.
It's a clusterfuk of the highest order.
But you know what? It's starting to unravel, and, as these things have a way of doing, it'll be the smallest trigger that causes the biggest bang.
I think I just heard a 'click' somewhere softly in the distance.
And if not this time...
Actually, despite the collective intellectual genius (and I'm not being facetious here) of Draghi et al, I think it IS this time. Too many people trying to force their will on too many people; history shows it doesn't work in the long term.
Pull up a chair....
As usual I agree with Steffan,that said we are on our 3rd potential bailout with more needed,there is talk online of the need for more cash by the end of next month,the trouble is here IMHO its never been about "Greece" but carrying on, whilst the EU coffers are still awash with net contributors funds they will keep paying,I think ultimately the states with economic output and profit will tire of the whole thing,morally surely it cant go on and on for ever though looking at the length of these 2 threads I'm starting to wonder I still think some unraveling will occur.It's no longer (and probably wasn't ever) about Greece's debt, it's about control. And power. And politics. And the salaries enjoyed (and the machine created to ensure control) at the Euro taxpayer's expense.
It's a clusterfuk of the highest order.
But you know what? It's starting to unravel, and, as these things have a way of doing, it'll be the smallest trigger that causes the biggest bang.
I think I just heard a 'click' somewhere softly in the distance.
And if not this time...
Actually, despite the collective intellectual genius (and I'm not being facetious here) of Draghi et al, I think it IS this time. Too many people trying to force their will on too many people; history shows it doesn't work in the long term.
Pull up a chair....
Edited by 911Gary on Monday 2nd February 10:36
LongQ said:
Gargamel said:
If it isn't Syriza this time, it will be Podemos next time or Le Pen or UKIP.
I'm struggling to imagine Ukip getting a million people (or whatever the real number was) onto the streets unless Farage was funding a massive pub crawl.Gargamel said:
If it isn't Syriza this time, it will be Podemos next time or Le Pen or UKIP.
The politics of the EU are unraveling, simply because the economics haven't delivered.
Spain and Italy are still running above 30% youth unemployment.
The only objective the Euro Currency can really have been said to have achieved is to cement the Germans as the pre eminent economic power in Europe.
Were I an entrepeneurial young Spaniard/Italian/Greek I would be either:The politics of the EU are unraveling, simply because the economics haven't delivered.
Spain and Italy are still running above 30% youth unemployment.
The only objective the Euro Currency can really have been said to have achieved is to cement the Germans as the pre eminent economic power in Europe.
a) Using the freedom of movement of workers to relocate somewhere more prosperous within the EU, or
b) Taking advantage of a stable, internationally accepted currency and membership of an enormous, protectionist market to make and sell stuff around Europe.
What I wouldn't be doing is sitting at home waiting for my savings to be converted into some Mickey Mouse currency that no-one wants and moaning that it's all the fault of the Germans.
Membership of the EU brings huge opportunities for those prepared to take advantage of them, as usual it's a case that those who can, do, whilst those who can't, just moan (and vote UKIP/Syriza/Podemos).
RYH64E said:
Gargamel said:
If it isn't Syriza this time, it will be Podemos next time or Le Pen or UKIP.
The politics of the EU are unraveling, simply because the economics haven't delivered.
Spain and Italy are still running above 30% youth unemployment.
The only objective the Euro Currency can really have been said to have achieved is to cement the Germans as the pre eminent economic power in Europe.
Were I an entrepeneurial young Spaniard/Italian/Greek I would be either:The politics of the EU are unraveling, simply because the economics haven't delivered.
Spain and Italy are still running above 30% youth unemployment.
The only objective the Euro Currency can really have been said to have achieved is to cement the Germans as the pre eminent economic power in Europe.
a) Using the freedom of movement of workers to relocate somewhere more prosperous within the EU, or
b) Taking advantage of a stable, internationally accepted currency and membership of an enormous, protectionist market to make and sell stuff around Europe.
What I wouldn't be doing is sitting at home waiting for my savings to be converted into some Mickey Mouse currency that no-one wants and moaning that it's all the fault of the Germans.
Membership of the EU brings huge opportunities for those prepared to take advantage of them, as usual it's a case that those who can, do, whilst those who can't, just moan (and vote UKIP/Syriza/Podemos).
RYH64E said:
Gargamel said:
If it isn't Syriza this time, it will be Podemos next time or Le Pen or UKIP.
The politics of the EU are unraveling, simply because the economics haven't delivered.
Spain and Italy are still running above 30% youth unemployment.
The only objective the Euro Currency can really have been said to have achieved is to cement the Germans as the pre eminent economic power in Europe.
Were I an entrepeneurial young Spaniard/Italian/Greek I would be either:The politics of the EU are unraveling, simply because the economics haven't delivered.
Spain and Italy are still running above 30% youth unemployment.
The only objective the Euro Currency can really have been said to have achieved is to cement the Germans as the pre eminent economic power in Europe.
a) Using the freedom of movement of workers to relocate somewhere more prosperous within the EU, or
b) Taking advantage of a stable, internationally accepted currency and membership of an enormous, protectionist market to make and sell stuff around Europe.
What I wouldn't be doing is sitting at home waiting for my savings to be converted into some Mickey Mouse currency that no-one wants and moaning that it's all the fault of the Germans.
Membership of the EU brings huge opportunities for those prepared to take advantage of them, as usual it's a case that those who can, do, whilst those who can't, just moan (and vote UKIP/Syriza/Podemos).
RYH64E said:
Gargamel said:
If it isn't Syriza this time, it will be Podemos next time or Le Pen or UKIP.
The politics of the EU are unraveling, simply because the economics haven't delivered.
Spain and Italy are still running above 30% youth unemployment.
The only objective the Euro Currency can really have been said to have achieved is to cement the Germans as the pre eminent economic power in Europe.
Were I an entrepeneurial young Spaniard/Italian/Greek I would be either:The politics of the EU are unraveling, simply because the economics haven't delivered.
Spain and Italy are still running above 30% youth unemployment.
The only objective the Euro Currency can really have been said to have achieved is to cement the Germans as the pre eminent economic power in Europe.
a) Using the freedom of movement of workers to relocate somewhere more prosperous within the EU, or
b) Taking advantage of a stable, internationally accepted currency and membership of an enormous, protectionist market to make and sell stuff around Europe.
What I wouldn't be doing is sitting at home waiting for my savings to be converted into some Mickey Mouse currency that no-one wants and moaning that it's all the fault of the Germans.
Membership of the EU brings huge opportunities for those prepared to take advantage of them, as usual it's a case that those who can, do, whilst those who can't, just moan (and vote UKIP/Syriza/Podemos).
b) stable? Euro has gone up and down like a yoyo! It's mainly down just now cancelling out a fair bit of the oil price falls. As to a protectionist market, EZ GDP is falling and in almost permanent borderline recession, there's widespread deflation and much of it the bad kind, and essentially we are shackled to a corps.
Syriza? I expect you'd moan a bit if you found a lump on one of your cobblers and was told by the doctor the state no longer offered any cancer treatment. That kind of thing does tend to bring folk out onto the streets.
Edited by Andy Zarse on Monday 2nd February 10:13
RYH64E said:
Membership of the EU brings huge opportunities for those prepared to take advantage of them, as usual it's a case that those who can, do, whilst those who can't, just moan (and vote UKIP/Syriza/Podemos).
So there's no room in your world for holding a position, and voting, based on a principle or belief?Of course not, because it stops you describing those who disagree with you as lazy moaners.
RYH64E said:
Gargamel said:
If it isn't Syriza this time, it will be Podemos next time or Le Pen or UKIP.
The politics of the EU are unraveling, simply because the economics haven't delivered.
Spain and Italy are still running above 30% youth unemployment.
The only objective the Euro Currency can really have been said to have achieved is to cement the Germans as the pre eminent economic power in Europe.
Were I an entrepeneurial young Spaniard/Italian/Greek I would be either:The politics of the EU are unraveling, simply because the economics haven't delivered.
Spain and Italy are still running above 30% youth unemployment.
The only objective the Euro Currency can really have been said to have achieved is to cement the Germans as the pre eminent economic power in Europe.
a) Using the freedom of movement of workers to relocate somewhere more prosperous within the EU, or
b) Taking advantage of a stable, internationally accepted currency and membership of an enormous, protectionist market to make and sell stuff around Europe.
What I wouldn't be doing is sitting at home waiting for my savings to be converted into some Mickey Mouse currency that no-one wants and moaning that it's all the fault of the Germans.
Membership of the EU brings huge opportunities for those prepared to take advantage of them, as usual it's a case that those who can, do, whilst those who can't, just moan (and vote UKIP/Syriza/Podemos).
The other 99.9% of the population pyramid will, at various levels, fail to make that cut. What are they supposed to do that, in a single leap, makes them free operatives?
Could the pyramid be inverted and still survive? I thought that was what the Greeks (and others) had been trying for a while already ...
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff