Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 3]
Discussion
Walford said:
Not really sure i get the neg interest rate thing...
I reckon you do...Positive interest rate, a bank pays the depositor interest on keeping the money there. The total amount increases over time.
Negative interest rate, the depositor pays the bank to keep the money there. Depositors are charged to place money with a bank. The initial amount reduces over time.
It must have been something else...
fblm said:
Gargamel said:
Essentially it is an argument for a Global Default and reset of the debt clocks, would be a good time to rebase a few currencies as well. Great in theory, too much politics.
Great in theory? Are you serious? Someone owns all that debt. You just bankrupted every pension fund, insurance company and bank. Where does your food come from? The looting would start within hours.
Buy tinned food and ammo.
Mermaid said:
turbobloke said:
Negative interest rate, the depositor pays the bank to keep the money there. Depositors are charged to place money with a bank. The initial amount reduces over time.
It must have been something else...
Will need to print lots of £50 & 1000 Euro notes. And a mattress.It must have been something else...
fblm said:
Great in theory? Are you serious? Someone owns all that debt. You just bankrupted every pension fund, insurance company and bank. Where does your food come from? The looting would start within hours.
So pensions are bankrupt, Insurance no longer exists (apparently) and the banks close. Even assuming any of this is in anyway correct - which I would challenge in the strongest terms. the next bit, where does your food come from is utterly bizarre.
Food comes from farms/crops - real stuff. Not from Banks Insurance companies or pension funds.
Please tell me which Insurance company currently supplies your food ?
We can argue about a debt reset, fact is, a reasonable amount of debt may be netted off between banks, companies etc.
The value of money is not absolute, Germany and Russia both completed restarted the currency within the 20th Century, backed by land bonds. It can be done.
Which neither means it should be, or that it is easy. I agree with you if you are sat on "assets" that are in fact loans out on which you recieve interest, then debt cancellation is bad, you lose both your revenue stream and the value of the money you lent out.
However, we could give you as the creditor your money back, and still cancel the debt - QE is precisely that.
fblm said:
Great in theory? Are you serious? Someone owns all that debt. You just bankrupted every pension fund, insurance company and bank. Where does your food come from? The looting would start within hours.
It's good to see a rare glimpse of common sense in this rambling thread of crazy ideas! 
Claudia Skies said:
It's good to see a rare glimpse of common sense in this rambling thread of crazy ideas!
Please tell me, how will China ultimately repay the $ 28,000,000,000,000 it owes ?It won't - not ever.
The top ten countries will NEVER repay their debts. The banks have no interest in making them, and they will lend more, after all they create money all the time.
It may never become a problem, its only numbers and its effects can be very limited, but....
Haven't been here for a while and nothing in the news.
I take it that, as expected, someone has entered or taken away some decimal places in a computer somewhere, someone else has changed a couple of rules and as a result fictitious money has been multplied and fictitious debt made to disappear?
And that somebody else somewhere has written a very cleverly worded speech to explain how this makes sense politically?
As the Nighness of the End of the Euro dwindles ever further of course.
I take it that, as expected, someone has entered or taken away some decimal places in a computer somewhere, someone else has changed a couple of rules and as a result fictitious money has been multplied and fictitious debt made to disappear?
And that somebody else somewhere has written a very cleverly worded speech to explain how this makes sense politically?
As the Nighness of the End of the Euro dwindles ever further of course.
Edited by Driller on Wednesday 4th March 15:48
Claudia Skies said:
Your point is well made because this whole thread is based on the premise, "Some or all of Euroland can't afford its debts so the end is nigh".
However, as you have made clear the issue is not unique to Euroland. Can UK afford its debts? Looks a big figure to me.
Absolutely old fruit, no one is going to repay their debts..merely service interest. However, as you have made clear the issue is not unique to Euroland. Can UK afford its debts? Looks a big figure to me.
So what follows is
1. Why pick on Greece ?
2. What IS moral hazard for lenders these days anyway ?
3. Some kind of debt write off OR major black swan which renders money meaningless is INEVITABLE in the long run.
4. Try to start a philosophical debate on the nature of money or debt compared to real things and someone will accuse you of being a communist !
Driller said:
Haven't been here for a while and nothing in the news.
I take it that, as expected, someone has entered or taken away some decimal places in a computer somewhere, someone else has changed a couple of rules and as a result fictitious money has been multplied and fictitious debt made to disappear?
And that somebody else somewhere has written a very cleverly worded speech to explain how this makes sense politically?
As the Nighness of the End of the Euro dwindles ever further of course.
Interesting view. Unsurprisingly I disagree.I take it that, as expected, someone has entered or taken away some decimal places in a computer somewhere, someone else has changed a couple of rules and as a result fictitious money has been multplied and fictitious debt made to disappear?
And that somebody else somewhere has written a very cleverly worded speech to explain how this makes sense politically?
As the Nighness of the End of the Euro dwindles ever further of course.
Edited by Driller on Wednesday 4th March 15:48
One of the undoubted effects of all the shilly shallying, stage managed announcements and total failure by the EU to actually manage ths problem is that the general realisation has risen substantially within Europe and the EU, that the EU have NOT got the answer to this matter, in any way, shape or form. Indeed it is also apparent that the actual abilities of the EU to put right any of the the failings within these insolvent states is non existant. Printing unsupported QE Money and throwing it at hopelessly insolvent sovereign states has and may for a time enable this mess to continue. But this can never provide a solution.
That will not reduce the poverty and debt within these failing states in any way whatsoever. In fact the overall debts of Greece are rising steadily and the EU are making the insolvency increasingly serious every week. This is not a solution, it is a fudge to keep the EU rolling and keep the gravy train running for the EU leaders and bureaucrats. There is nothing in this which will help any of the failing states to recover because this program is designed to help others. The EU Politicians and the EU bureaucrats.
This is beginning to seen for what it is. Outright fraud. Greece will be forced to leave the EU because Greece cannot possibly ever repay these horrendous debts. There is no recovery within the Greek economy and there will be no recovery within the Greek economy. Greece will leave this union.
Gargamel said:
Claudia Skies said:
It's good to see a rare glimpse of common sense in this rambling thread of crazy ideas!
Please tell me, how will China ultimately repay the $ 28,000,000,000,000 it owes ?It won't - not ever.
The top ten countries will NEVER repay their debts. The banks have no interest in making them, and they will lend more, after all they create money all the time.
It may never become a problem its only numbers and its effects can be very limited, but....
At least that was the end - of a notchy gearchange, new synchro ring sorted it.
Wnat's the EU's gearbox got in it apart from magic beans.....
fblm said:
Gargamel said:
Essentially it is an argument for a Global Default and reset of the debt clocks, would be a good time to rebase a few currencies as well. Great in theory, too much politics.
Great in theory? Are you serious? Someone owns all that debt. You just bankrupted every pension fund, insurance company and bank. Where does your food come from? The looting would start within hours.What about people who have never had any debt instead rent and investor all savings and all investment income whereas supposedly those with lots of debt secured assets get the debt written off yet keep the asset.
Would be interesting globally what is the net of savings to all debt do they net off?
Welshbeef said:
fblm said:
Gargamel said:
Essentially it is an argument for a Global Default and reset of the debt clocks, would be a good time to rebase a few currencies as well. Great in theory, too much politics.
Great in theory? Are you serious? Someone owns all that debt. You just bankrupted every pension fund, insurance company and bank. Where does your food come from? The looting would start within hours.What about people who have never had any debt instead rent and investor all savings and all investment income whereas supposedly those with lots of debt secured assets get the debt written off yet keep the asset.
Would be interesting globally what is the net of savings to all debt do they net off?
The average household debt in the UK (excluding mortgages) was £6,016 in November 2014. Average household debt including mortgages was £54,197 and if you add to that each household share (two adults for the sake of argument) of national debt then the total including mortgages is around £85,000 whereas two adults in a household co-owning the property have an average net worth per household of around £149,000 including a paltry average cash savings of £1700 per person. That's about 175% of the debt figure if the back of my fag packet is working.
turbobloke said:
Welshbeef said:
fblm said:
Gargamel said:
Essentially it is an argument for a Global Default and reset of the debt clocks, would be a good time to rebase a few currencies as well. Great in theory, too much politics.
Great in theory? Are you serious? Someone owns all that debt. You just bankrupted every pension fund, insurance company and bank. Where does your food come from? The looting would start within hours.What about people who have never had any debt instead rent and investor all savings and all investment income whereas supposedly those with lots of debt secured assets get the debt written off yet keep the asset.
Would be interesting globally what is the net of savings to all debt do they net off?
The average household debt in the UK (excluding mortgages) was £6,016 in November 2014. Average household debt including mortgages was £54,197 and if you add to that each household share (two adults for the sake of argument) of national debt then the total including mortgages is around £85,000 whereas two adults in a household co-owning the property have an average net worth per household of around £149,000 including a paltry average cash savings of £1700 per person. That's about 175% of the debt figure if the back of my fag packet is working.
I remain distinctly sceptical that the Banking sector has really learned any lessons. I do think that the growth of unsecured credit in the UK is getting much too large. I spent some time working (unpaid) for the CAB on Debt counselling and I was very concerned at the levels of credit being offerred to some benefit claimants. Not a good game IMO. But I would agree that the figures do suggest that this form of credit is reasonably balanced.
Steffan said:
Driller said:
Haven't been here for a while and nothing in the news.
I take it that, as expected, someone has entered or taken away some decimal places in a computer somewhere, someone else has changed a couple of rules and as a result fictitious money has been multplied and fictitious debt made to disappear?
And that somebody else somewhere has written a very cleverly worded speech to explain how this makes sense politically?
As the Nighness of the End of the Euro dwindles ever further of course.
Interesting view. Unsurprisingly I disagree.I take it that, as expected, someone has entered or taken away some decimal places in a computer somewhere, someone else has changed a couple of rules and as a result fictitious money has been multplied and fictitious debt made to disappear?
And that somebody else somewhere has written a very cleverly worded speech to explain how this makes sense politically?
As the Nighness of the End of the Euro dwindles ever further of course.
Edited by Driller on Wednesday 4th March 15:48
One of the undoubted effects of all the shilly shallying, stage managed announcements and total failure by the EU to actually manage ths problem is that the general realisation has risen substantially within Europe and the EU, that the EU have NOT got the answer to this matter, in any way, shape or form. Indeed it is also apparent that the actual abilities of the EU to put right any of the the failings within these insolvent states is non existant. Printing unsupported QE Money and throwing it at hopelessly insolvent sovereign states has and may for a time enable this mess to continue. But this can never provide a solution.
That will not reduce the poverty and debt within these failing states in any way whatsoever. In fact the overall debts of Greece are rising steadily and the EU are making the insolvency increasingly serious every week. This is not a solution, it is a fudge to keep the EU rolling and keep the gravy train running for the EU leaders and bureaucrats. There is nothing in this which will help any of the failing states to recover because this program is designed to help others. The EU Politicians and the EU bureaucrats.
This is beginning to seen for what it is. Outright fraud. Greece will be forced to leave the EU because Greece cannot possibly ever repay these horrendous debts. There is no recovery within the Greek economy and there will be no recovery within the Greek economy. Greece will leave this union.
t, different day".Driller said:
Steffan said:
Driller said:
Haven't been here for a while and nothing in the news.
I take it that, as expected, someone has entered or taken away some decimal places in a computer somewhere, someone else has changed a couple of rules and as a result fictitious money has been multplied and fictitious debt made to disappear?
And that somebody else somewhere has written a very cleverly worded speech to explain how this makes sense politically?
As the Nighness of the End of the Euro dwindles ever further of course.
Interesting view. Unsurprisingly I disagree.I take it that, as expected, someone has entered or taken away some decimal places in a computer somewhere, someone else has changed a couple of rules and as a result fictitious money has been multplied and fictitious debt made to disappear?
And that somebody else somewhere has written a very cleverly worded speech to explain how this makes sense politically?
As the Nighness of the End of the Euro dwindles ever further of course.
Edited by Driller on Wednesday 4th March 15:48
One of the undoubted effects of all the shilly shallying, stage managed announcements and total failure by the EU to actually manage ths problem is that the general realisation has risen substantially within Europe and the EU, that the EU have NOT got the answer to this matter, in any way, shape or form. Indeed it is also apparent that the actual abilities of the EU to put right any of the the failings within these insolvent states is non existant. Printing unsupported QE Money and throwing it at hopelessly insolvent sovereign states has and may for a time enable this mess to continue. But this can never provide a solution.
That will not reduce the poverty and debt within these failing states in any way whatsoever. In fact the overall debts of Greece are rising steadily and the EU are making the insolvency increasingly serious every week. This is not a solution, it is a fudge to keep the EU rolling and keep the gravy train running for the EU leaders and bureaucrats. There is nothing in this which will help any of the failing states to recover because this program is designed to help others. The EU Politicians and the EU bureaucrats.
This is beginning to seen for what it is. Outright fraud. Greece will be forced to leave the EU because Greece cannot possibly ever repay these horrendous debts. There is no recovery within the Greek economy and there will be no recovery within the Greek economy. Greece will leave this union.
t, different day".Three years ago the EU were proclaiming a solution to the failing states. There is no solution in this continuing mess. The EU can and are deliberately misrepresenting their solution because by that means the EU gravy train continues to provide wealth and grandiose lifestyles to the stage strutting EU leaders and bureaucrats. That is the reason this is continuing. There is no thought in this for the insolvent failing states.
Greece cannot recover economics stability within this pioe dream. The transparency of the predicament of Greece is becoming more and more apparent. Inevitably Greece will default.
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