Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 3]
Discussion
fblm said:
Claudia Skies said:
fblm said:
And despite living and working in the EU they are all exempt from national income taxes!
A statement which grabs you a cheap headline while completely misrepresenting the actual position.fblm said:
tax is paid to the EU.
Claudia Skies said:
fblm said:
Claudia Skies said:
fblm said:
And despite living and working in the EU they are all exempt from national income taxes!
A statement which grabs you a cheap headline while completely misrepresenting the actual position.fblm said:
tax is paid to the EU.
Nobody ever said they pay no tax. If anyone is misrepresenting things then clearly it is you.
Still wondering if you'd managed to come up with a plan to show how Greece can pay all the money back and avoid default?
Claudia Skies said:
fblm said:
And despite living and working in the EU they are all exempt from national income taxes!
A statement which grabs you a cheap headline while completely misrepresenting the actual position.en.euabc.com said:
The salaries are NOT taxed in their member states. Instead, a low tax is paid to the EU.
I'm sorry which bit don't you understand? In fact the 'low tax' paid is roughly 20%, straight back into the EU trough not national treasuries, don't worry though their basic living allowances are a % of salary. Can you guess roughly what percentage they add up to? Go on have a guess. I'll start you off; thye get a 'residence allowance' of 15% of salary.The salary for the post is expected to be between €300,000 and €350,000 a year, subject, it is said, to a tax rate of 25%. This comfortably exceeds the US president's salary of $400,000 (€270,000).
Then there are the perks. There is to be no official residence for the president. Barroso rents a Brussels villa and the council president will be expected to do the same, with a housing allowance of around €40,000 a year, plus perhaps half of that again for accommodating and entertaining guests.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/19/eu-pr...
Then there are the perks. There is to be no official residence for the president. Barroso rents a Brussels villa and the council president will be expected to do the same, with a housing allowance of around €40,000 a year, plus perhaps half of that again for accommodating and entertaining guests.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/19/eu-pr...
NicD said:
Firstly, shorting anything should not be lauded.
So you think a system that only allows you to go 'long' leads to stability? By shorting Greek bonds you will be driving up the yields and sending a message to the government that their debt is unsustainable. It might make the politicos (and toady academics) unhappy but it's the correct information they should be receiving.Edited by fido on Wednesday 25th March 13:59
fido said:
So you think a system that only allows you to go 'long' leads to stability? By shorting Greek bonds you will be driving up the yields and sending a message to the government that their debt is unsustainable. It might make the politicos (and toady academics) unhappy but that's what the correct information they should be receiving.
I agree but all this HFT stuff isn't adding stability I don't think.Edited by fido on Wednesday 25th March 13:50
Bets placed long or short should last long enough for anyone to react to, not just milli or micro seconds.
Mr Whippy said:
I agree but all this HFT stuff isn't adding stability I don't think.
It's debateable (either way) if this level of trading improves the market - though I recall even before HFT + electronic trading (in the Futures pits) there were flow traders who just stood around looking to take advantage of market orders - potentially they add depth and liquidity to markets. HFT is just a faster version of what pit traders did before electronic trading.Mr Whippy said:
I agree but all this HFT stuff isn't adding stability I don't think.
That's accepted I think.Mr Whippy said:
Bets placed long or short should last long enough for anyone to react to, not just milli or micro seconds.
But this makes no sense at all. If I buy a millisecond before you sell, how is that any different to a big nasty HFT buying and selling a millisecond apart? What diffeence does the name on the ticket make? A 3rd party human has 'no time to react' in either situation; so what? In fact there's a good chance if we trade a millesecond apart we dealt with the same HFT! HFT's add massive amounts of liquidity to the market at vastly reduced bid offer spreads to the old human mkt makers. The main reasons they don't add to stability is that when something does not compute they go into some kind of algo spasm, between themselves, withrawing liquidity and trading all over the place at stupid levels.fblm said:
The main reasons they don't add to stability is that when something does not compute they go into some kind of algo spasm, between themselves, withrawing liquidity and trading all over the place at stupid levels.
Exactly. This is an electronic / algorithmic issue which regulation needs to evolve around - not to do with the ability to go short (and worry politicians who disobey economic laws!).fblm said:
But this makes no sense at all. If I buy a millisecond before you sell, how is that any different to a big nasty HFT buying and selling a millisecond apart? What diffeence does the name on the ticket make? A 3rd party human has 'no time to react' in either situation; so what? In fact there's a good chance if we trade a millesecond apart we dealt with the same HFT! HFT's add massive amounts of liquidity to the market at vastly reduced bid offer spreads to the old human mkt makers. The main reasons they don't add to stability is that when something does not compute they go into some kind of algo spasm, between themselves, withrawing liquidity and trading all over the place at stupid levels.
I'm not sure if I'm making sense in my earlier post, but it stands to reason that if trading can occur between HFT devices and react to a rise or drop before a human can even see the movement and react to it with a 'human' trade.Ie, a HFT might offer something for a millisecond and before you even react to buy it, it's not available any more because another HFT bought/sold in reaction to it, and it has since removed it's offer?! Is that even possible. I assume it is, by design. It's designed to out-do everyone else for the operators margins, otherwise why run it?
As for HFT generated liquidity, by simply trading faster, they make more liquidity. Good old rationalised approaches to then levering more in shorts
They should make all trades have to be written on bits of paper in the exchange and then put into a computer manually
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
I'm not sure if I'm making sense in my earlier post
I'm afraid notMr Whippy said:
, but it stands to reason that if trading can occur between HFT devices and react to a rise or drop before a human can even see the movement and react to it with a 'human' trade.
Ie, a HFT might offer something for a millisecond and before you even react to buy it, it's not available any more because another HFT bought/sold in reaction to it, and it has since removed it's offer?! Is that even possible. I assume it is, by design. It's designed to out-do everyone else for the operators margins, otherwise why run it?
Nope still no idea what you're getting at. If you're genuinely interestedIe, a HFT might offer something for a millisecond and before you even react to buy it, it's not available any more because another HFT bought/sold in reaction to it, and it has since removed it's offer?! Is that even possible. I assume it is, by design. It's designed to out-do everyone else for the operators margins, otherwise why run it?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307887189/ref=oh...
is well worth a read.
fblm said:
Nope still no idea what you're getting at. If you're genuinely interested
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307887189/ref=oh...
is well worth a read.
I'm genuinely interested, but I can't see how it can be seen as universally good fundamentally if the HFT are essentially front running every piece of information that becomes available to traders.http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307887189/ref=oh...
is well worth a read.
I assume then if HFT are so universally 'ok' bar algorithm glitches, that the source code and algos are freely available for all to review to see how ethically they are trading?
It's just like good old gamblers, designed specifically with human gambling and profit/loss responses in mind, to draw people in and then screw them over.
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
I'm genuinely interested, but I can't see how it can be seen as universally good
It's absolutely not, most people in the industry would agree but there is no getting the genie back in the bottle now. Read the full title of the book I recommended. Its not universally bad either, much tighter bid offer spreads for us little guys for a start.Mr Whippy said:
fundamentally if the HFT are essentially front running every piece of information that becomes available to traders.
That isn't front running, that's reacting to events faster than the next guy. Algo's parsing news and economic release data feeds is no different to humans staring at the tape all day, they are just faster and they certainly don't get it right every time, I developed a basic one to trade eurodollar interest rate futures years ago, it's nothing new. Some HFT's do front run orders though, it's a scuzzy, yet bizarely legal practice of watching for orders on one exchange then using faster computers and faster connections to race the order to the next exchange and front run the original guy. It's s
t and should be banned, some exchanges combat it by adding minute delays. The whole front running thing frothed up by the likes of Michael Lewis in Flash Boys is only one of hundreds if not thousands of HFT strategies.Mr Whippy said:
I assume then if HFT are so universally 'ok' bar algorithm glitches, that the source code and algos are freely available for all to review to see how ethically they are trading?
No body has said that. Of course the source code isn't public. Mr Whippy said:
It's just like good old gamblers, designed specifically with human gambling and profit/loss responses in mind, to draw people in and then screw them over.
fblm said:
Mr Whippy said:
I'm genuinely interested, but I can't see how it can be seen as universally good
It's absolutely not, most people in the industry would agree but there is no getting the genie back in the bottle now. Read the full title of the book I recommended. Its not universally bad either, much tighter bid offer spreads for us little guys for a start.Mr Whippy said:
fundamentally if the HFT are essentially front running every piece of information that becomes available to traders.
That isn't front running, that's reacting to events faster than the next guy. Algo's parsing news and economic release data feeds is no different to humans staring at the tape all day, they are just faster and they certainly don't get it right every time, I developed a basic one to trade eurodollar interest rate futures years ago, it's nothing new. Some HFT's do front run orders though, it's a scuzzy, yet bizarely legal practice of watching for orders on one exchange then using faster computers and faster connections to race the order to the next exchange and front run the original guy. It's st and should be banned, some exchanges combat it by adding minute delays. The whole front running thing frothed up by the likes of Michael Lewis in Flash Boys is only one of hundreds if not thousands of HFT strategies.Mr Whippy said:
I assume then if HFT are so universally 'ok' bar algorithm glitches, that the source code and algos are freely available for all to review to see how ethically they are trading?
No body has said that. Of course the source code isn't public. Mr Whippy said:
It's just like good old gamblers, designed specifically with human gambling and profit/loss responses in mind, to draw people in and then screw them over.
To my mind this is all about personal choice and personal freedom. One of the consequences that spending years training as a Chartered Accountant after graduating in Psychology was that I developed an aversion to all forms of gambling. Perhaps my early introduction to the consequences that can occur when I became involved in Recieverships was partly the cause? Perhaps being brought up as a Son of the Manse was another? However each to their own is my approach. If it is legal and not involving any misappropriation or other clearly underhand activity then it is up to each individual to decide what they do in their lives.
I have done a great many things, that I ought not to have done and not done a great many things that I ought to have done throughout my life and the responsibility has always been entirely mine. If individuals wish to gamble or become involved in gambling provdiding my concerns above remain unbroken then I can see no harm at all. Just a metter of personal choice.
To thine own self be true is essentially my approach to life. If you know you are involved in doing things that could cause difficulties, or may result in damage to oneself or others, then the individual themselves are responsible alone for continuing those activities. Otherwise the modern national excuse of today "It's not my fault" becomes the escape clause used by everybody to try to avoid or evade the consequences of their mistakes. I have always been too fat to hide behind lampposts and ineed I do not have a good enough memory to be intentionally interested in unlawful activities. Keep it simpe is another epithet I try to follow for the same reasons.
Edited by Steffan on Thursday 26th March 14:19
fblm said:
Mr Whippy said:
I assume then if HFT are so universally 'ok' bar algorithm glitches, that the source code and algos are freely available for all to review to see how ethically they are trading?
No body has said that. Of course the source code isn't public. "Secrecy, Strategy and Speed are the terms that best define high frequency trading."
Steffan said:
Quite.
To my mind this is all about personal choice and personal freedom. One of the consequences that spending years training as a Chartered Accountant after graduating in Psychology was that i developed an aversion to all forms of gambling. Perhaps my early introduction to the consequences that can occur when I becam iinvolved in Recieverships was partly the cause? Perhaps being brought up as a Son of the Manse was another? However each to their own is my approach. If it is legal and not involving any misappropriation or other clearly underhand activity then it s up to each individual to decide what they do in their lives.
I have done a great many things, that I ought not to have done and not done a great many things that I ought to have done throughout my life and the responsibility has always been entirely mine. If individuals wish to gamble or become involved in gambling provdiding my concerns above remain unbroken then I can see no harm at all. Just a metter of personal choice.
To thine own self be true is essentially my approach to life. If you know you are involved in doing things that could cause difficulties, or may result in damage to oneself or others, then the individual themselves are responsible alone for continuing those activities. Otherwise the modern national excuse of today "It's not my fault" becomes the escape clause used by everybody to try to avoid or evade the consequences of their mistakes. I have always been too fat to hide behind lampposts norI have not had a good enough memory to be intentionslly interested in unlawful activities. Keep it simpe is another epithet I try to follow for the same reasons.
I totally agree with that ethic and outlook.To my mind this is all about personal choice and personal freedom. One of the consequences that spending years training as a Chartered Accountant after graduating in Psychology was that i developed an aversion to all forms of gambling. Perhaps my early introduction to the consequences that can occur when I becam iinvolved in Recieverships was partly the cause? Perhaps being brought up as a Son of the Manse was another? However each to their own is my approach. If it is legal and not involving any misappropriation or other clearly underhand activity then it s up to each individual to decide what they do in their lives.
I have done a great many things, that I ought not to have done and not done a great many things that I ought to have done throughout my life and the responsibility has always been entirely mine. If individuals wish to gamble or become involved in gambling provdiding my concerns above remain unbroken then I can see no harm at all. Just a metter of personal choice.
To thine own self be true is essentially my approach to life. If you know you are involved in doing things that could cause difficulties, or may result in damage to oneself or others, then the individual themselves are responsible alone for continuing those activities. Otherwise the modern national excuse of today "It's not my fault" becomes the escape clause used by everybody to try to avoid or evade the consequences of their mistakes. I have always been too fat to hide behind lampposts norI have not had a good enough memory to be intentionslly interested in unlawful activities. Keep it simpe is another epithet I try to follow for the same reasons.
Consistency is key here.
If some forms of HFT can be bad for the majority, then regulate it.
Or if you don't care, then let the market run free entirely, and stop bailing banks and propping up financial enterprises that should fail.
This outlook of bailing out everyone from banks to wonga loan users or ppi buyers is just bonkers.
Choose an approach and run with it.
HFT needs tight regulation to make sure it's not misused.
Or if it's to be left free then so should everything else, including 'too big to fail' banks and ppi buyers and all that jazz.
Oh for free markets. But in the absence of that, regulate those who will take the piss of the gaps and cause yet more financial 'issues' that no doubt I'll be having to foot some of the bill for to bail them out!
Dave
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff