Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 3]
Discussion
t load of money 'we' already lent them. You'd be right to question the wisdom of this.Andy Zarse said:
A friend who went there not long after said he saw a new Tuscan being worked on whilst jacked up on old oil barrels. Say what you like, but you'd never see that at Porsche!
Pretty sure Porsche would have used new oil barrels. Much higher standards.
Impressive demonstration of the relative lightness of the cars though ....
Andy Zarse said:
You say that like a wiring loom lying on the floor in a puddle of oily water is a good thing!
Indeed. Well spotted. Clearly Greece is trying to bounce the EU into yet more concessions. Syriza may succeed short term but the reality of the abject failure of the underlying Greek economy is nw apparent for all to see. Several Other media articles on similar tacks such as:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-02/greece-sa...
Any reasonably balanced assessement of the Billions more Euro's Greece is seeking to borrow and the totally apprent weakness and failure in the Greek economy itself is just too apparent now for this to continue for much longer. There may be another cobbled agreement throwing yet more Billions of the Solvent EU states taxpayers money away into the black hole that the Greek economy has become.
But this matter can only end in one way. Greece has not made any of the necessary reforms and changes required to bring the Greek economy back into balance despite three years of continuous and massive support from the EU and Hundreds of Billions of Euros thrown blindly away in the attempt. Greece is now directly facing abject bankruptcy in consequence.
Syriza clearly have absolutely no intention of bringing in the economic measures required and are proffering impossible economic polices which must increase public expenditure and not reduce it. Despite the efforts of the EU , the first default of a Sovereign state is staring the EU in the face. Directly consequent to the absolute stupidity and arrogance and self serving gravy train continuance that the EU are indulging in. Tragedy for Greece itself and the protagonists of ths dementented nonsense. But it is now running straight into the reality buffers. Only a matter of time.
Isn't the debt wholly issued by the ECB so if Greece walks away from £330bilion only the EU suffer.
Even if Greece is a pariah state for a decade from an EU perspective isn't that a great swap/deal for the Greeks? Knowing the debt would be 70+ years of suffering v 10 years out and possibly flourishing ...
Never pay it back leave it on Germany who refuse to pay WW2 repatriation costs to Greece a nice parting goodbye from them.
Even if Greece is a pariah state for a decade from an EU perspective isn't that a great swap/deal for the Greeks? Knowing the debt would be 70+ years of suffering v 10 years out and possibly flourishing ...
Never pay it back leave it on Germany who refuse to pay WW2 repatriation costs to Greece a nice parting goodbye from them.
Blib said:
In that Telegraph article Baroso tels us that there are poorer countries lending money to Greece due to the current agreement. Desperate measures.
This is where things are utterly unfair and the Greek People need to understand its not the Wealthy Germans or French etc instead raker economies than their own 3rd world countries are bailing them out why is that fair? They have no more money to give and cannot afford to write any of it off. Instead asking for more could cause then to default which in turn would mean Greece has to chip into a bailout fund for them. Serious question IF another EU country starts to need a bail out just after Greece has negotiated reduced debt but is then actually demanded to pay into the pot the exact amount they negotiated off
Welshbeef said:
Blib said:
In that Telegraph article Baroso tels us that there are poorer countries lending money to Greece due to the current agreement. Desperate measures.
This is where things are utterly unfair and the Greek People need to understand its not the Wealthy Germans or French etc instead raker economies than their own 3rd world countries are bailing them out why is that fair? They have no more money to give and cannot afford to write any of it off. Instead asking for more could cause then to default which in turn would mean Greece has to chip into a bailout fund for them. Serious question IF another EU country starts to need a bail out just after Greece has negotiated reduced debt but is then actually demanded to pay into the pot the exact amount they negotiated off
Welshbeef said:
Isn't the debt wholly issued by the ECB so if Greece walks away from £330bilion only the EU suffer.
Even if Greece is a pariah state for a decade from an EU perspective isn't that a great swap/deal for the Greeks? Knowing the debt would be 70+ years of suffering v 10 years out and possibly flourishing ...
Never pay it back leave it on Germany who refuse to pay WW2 repatriation costs to Greece a nice parting goodbye from them.
No it isn't only the ECB, IMF have about a third of the debt, some is on short term T bills (ie lent by Greek Banks mostly - what could possibly go wrong) and then some by external bond holders. There is an infographic a few pages pages. Even if Greece is a pariah state for a decade from an EU perspective isn't that a great swap/deal for the Greeks? Knowing the debt would be 70+ years of suffering v 10 years out and possibly flourishing ...
Never pay it back leave it on Germany who refuse to pay WW2 repatriation costs to Greece a nice parting goodbye from them.
When you get to the point where Greece can only repay its debts as they fall due, by being lent the money by the EU to pay them back it really is time to chuck the towel in and go out for a bottle of Ouzo or three or seek comfort in the arms of an 11 Euro Hooker, that you countrymen have been forced to become by your total failure to manage the situation.
Syriza are still talking about fresh legislation to increase Union voting powers, increase wages and pay more money to people on low pensions. Says it all really.
Gargamel said:
Welshbeef said:
Isn't the debt wholly issued by the ECB so if Greece walks away from £330bilion only the EU suffer.
Even if Greece is a pariah state for a decade from an EU perspective isn't that a great swap/deal for the Greeks? Knowing the debt would be 70+ years of suffering v 10 years out and possibly flourishing ...
Never pay it back leave it on Germany who refuse to pay WW2 repatriation costs to Greece a nice parting goodbye from them.
No it isn't only the ECB, IMF have about a third of the debt, some is on short term T bills (ie lent by Greek Banks mostly - what could possibly go wrong) and then some by external bond holders. There is an infographic a few pages pages. Even if Greece is a pariah state for a decade from an EU perspective isn't that a great swap/deal for the Greeks? Knowing the debt would be 70+ years of suffering v 10 years out and possibly flourishing ...
Never pay it back leave it on Germany who refuse to pay WW2 repatriation costs to Greece a nice parting goodbye from them.
When you get to the point where Greece can only repay its debts as they fall due, by being lent the money by the EU to pay them back it really is time to chuck the towel in and go out for a bottle of Ouzo or three or seek comfort in the arms of an 11 Euro Hooker, that you countrymen have been forced to become by your total failure to manage the situation.
Syriza are still talking about fresh legislation to increase Union voting powers, increase wages and pay more money to people on low pensions. Says it all really.
The problem for me has always been that the complete nonsense that this has become, was made apparent to me some years ago, when we first started spending months touring around Europe searching for a winter haven, in retirement, particularly around the Med, we where we could find some sun, some culture and a relaxed and fairly cultured lifestyle. During our travels, in this quest, it quickly became obvious that the countries on the Med Rim, were all visibly living on totally unsustainable activities and were all living way beyond their means.
We tried in France, for a while, and found the economy, as DJRC reminded us correctly on here, to be utter toast, and then tried Spain where even I could see that the cafe culture and easy lifestyles acheved by excessive borrowing without a real job was obviously going to end one way.
We looked at the Canaries and Madeira and Corsica, Sicily and Malta where the daft prices for litte more than Mud huts bought by Expats following remortgages at home, and the same "We don't need to work" attitudes foretold this was going to end disastrously in just the same way.
Similarly in Greece, were again the collase coming was obvious, and at last to Italy where we finally decided the glories of Lucca were right for us after much thought, being a truly unique completely walled Medieval City with the glorious Etruscan/Roman and Medeival walls surrounding the enclave that is Luuca. Very little traffic allowed in just suited us fine, we rarely have a car here, walking all around he city, all, on the flat and very good for us. The culture in Lucca refects Lucca being the birthplace if both Boccheriini and Puccini and this summer we have Elton John, coming, Pail MCcartney, Mark Knoffler, Robbie Willams and host of lesser Stars. Not bad for a city of less than 100,000 souls?
Sadly the growing closure of many manufacturing businesses in Lucca, as we found once we got to know Lucca, demonstrated very clearly to us that the Italian economy was also sliding down steadily. It still is steadily nosediving. The extent of the corruption in Italy is just crazy. That is why we decided to rent property here. We love Lucca but the property Market has steadily declined over the ten years we have have been coming year after year. Youth unemployment is causing many young Luchese to emigrate and Romanians, Latvians, Bosnians etc are replacing them in Lucca. Pity, but that is the reality.
We are finding it very dffcul to work up the enthisasm to decide to go back to the UK for an English Summer. But we will go back, Grandchildren etc requires to do so. Sod the weather, I will get my Quantum RS Turbo Syrrey Top out and my Woseley 4/50 and my latest kit car, a Paul Banham Frog Eyed Sprite correctly registered with Wood and Picket 1340cc A series lump. With the weight reduction to well under half a ton it should fly but I have the alternatives of a compete 160 BHP K seres to shoehorn in or an A series Turbo one if which will lighten my giils a bit, I think.
SWMBO is very heavily into Grand Opera and Puchini in particular, and we both enjoy Cassical concerts and jazz concerts and live musc generally. Puccini was brn in Lucca, hs father and grandfather were both resident organists at the magnificent Cathedral, as was Puccini who was Organist until his operatic skills developed. The Organ itself with three separate manuals to the superb concert class magnificent pipes (genuine 32 foot Pipes are rare indeed) hell of a sound on full volume, quite breathtaking. Mind you, you could easily go for a warm up outside in the winter, during Organ Recitals because the Cathedral is ridiculous under heated and the roof is some 40 feet away which allows for the pipes. Magnificent sound but bloody freezing which makes an interesting personal conflict amongst the congregation. But I digress.
Getting back on topic, what I am really trying to confirm, is that if there ever was any real sense in this EU madness, which I personally do not think, there ever was, even the most ardent supporter of the EU concept, should by now be starting to stare reality in the face. The continued support of Greece within the EU has become simply ridiculous. Bloody Ridiculious!
Three years of extensions to the hopless Debts , hundreds of Billions of Euro's aready wasted with absolutely no realstic prospect whatsoever, for any recovery. And more and more money being thrown away by tye EU in desperation, using QE for precisely the wrong tactic. There will be no lasting value in ths crazy money spend whatsoever. Just a bloody big loss.
As Gagamel rightly says,
"When you get to the point where Greece can only repay its debts as they fall due, by being lent the money by the EU to pay them back it really is time to chuck the towel in and go out for a bottle of Ouzo or three or seek comfort in the arms of an 11 Euro Hooker, that you countrymen have been forced to become by your total failure to manage the situation.
Syriza are still talking about fresh legislation to increase Union voting powers, increase wages and pay more money to people on low pensions. Says it all really"
Absolutely correctly. It really time is for a reality check and I think there is one long overdue for the EU.
Even if the EU try to kick the can once more, they can only buy a matter of weeks of grace, by the possible extension, because yet more debts that Greece must already repay, or default on, will become due under the original agreements and Greece cannot possibly repay any of these debts unless the EU lends even yet more money to Greece. In addition to the massive Greek debts already borrowed by Greece and patenty gone forever.
Which really is just plain stupid. With the visibility of the abject refusal of Syriza to adhere to any sensible policies, but regularly demand more public speding and more jobs and better wages and better pensions for Greece what other outcome can there be?
Steffan said:
Which really is just plain stupid. With the visibility of the abject refusal of Syriza to adhere to any sensible policies, but regularly demand more public speding and more jobs and better wages and better pensions for Greece what other outcome can there be?
It's interesting because we get to vote on this in the UK soon too.When you look at how many of the UK parties were represented last night on the TV it seemed most didn't want austerity, and thought spending was the way to go to solve their issues.
You could easily see this being the UK in another 5 years under the Euro and in the EU... with Euro forcing austerity and more debt on our shoulders. Probably quite likely with Labour at the helm again.
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
Steffan said:
Which really is just plain stupid. With the visibility of the abject refusal of Syriza to adhere to any sensible policies, but regularly demand more public speding and more jobs and better wages and better pensions for Greece what other outcome can there be?
It's interesting because we get to vote on this in the UK soon too.When you look at how many of the UK parties were represented last night on the TV it seemed most didn't want austerity, and thought spending was the way to go to solve their issues.
You could easily see this being the UK in another 5 years under the Euro and in the EU... with Euro forcing austerity and more debt on our shoulders. Probably quite likely with Labour at the helm again.
Dave
Never please NEVER ever again!
You are of course entirely correct that this a possibility. However I fervently hope never again in my lifetime ths is too awful to contemplate. More self serving Aparatchics, ridiculous taxation, more meanness nonsense polices, all causing greater and greater costs to the poor taxpayers. The welfare state out of contol and spending way beyond the resources of this country? Ruining this country with immigration steadiy soaring?
Ed Balls and Milliband are as dangerous as their dangerous nonsense polices demonstrate fortuitously. Sadly there are voters who regard their free handouts from Labour as the very stuff of life. Completely unsustainable and suicidal for this country. We have just had five years of Austerity trying to repair some of the most serious damage Labour managed to infliction on this country in last two Labour governments. Please God, not again. The damage still requires further work to be fully corrected and the UK needs a practical honest government that will grasp the problems and continue in ths vein? Please!
Steffan said:
Which really is just plain stupid. With the visibility of the abject refusal of Syriza to adhere to any sensible policies, but regularly demand more public speding and more jobs and better wages and better pensions for Greece what other outcome can there be?
Have Syriza actually delivered on any of this yet?Perhaps it is part of an agreed theatre - Syriza can play it to Greece as being held back from doing what is right by an uncaring Europe and the other EU states can tell their populations that they are forcing the unrealistic Greeks into line.
After all, things don't really seem to have moved on since the election. The Greeks 'harden' their stance, the EU says agreements must be made by date x and what actually happens is the Greeks just agree not to make the changes they threatened and another month or two are brought.
Perhaps the aim is to make this such a regular and unremarkable event that it just drops off the news completely.
Steffan said:
NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOHHHHhHHH !!!!!! " quite likely with Labour at the helm again".
Never please NEVER ever again!
Ed Balls and Milliband are as dangerous as their dangerous nonsense polices demonstrate fortuitously. Sadly there are voters who regard their free handouts from Labour as the very stuff of life.
and a bloated public sector, that was created as a vote pool by GBNever please NEVER ever again!
Ed Balls and Milliband are as dangerous as their dangerous nonsense polices demonstrate fortuitously. Sadly there are voters who regard their free handouts from Labour as the very stuff of life.
.
Steffan said:
NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOHHHHhHHH !!!!!! " quite likely with Labour at the helm again".
Never please NEVER ever again!
You are of course entirely correct that this a possibility. However I fervently hope never again in my lifetime ths is too awful to contemplate. More self serving Aparatchics, ridiculous taxation, more meanness nonsense polices, all causing greater and greater costs to the poor taxpayers. The welfare state out of contol and spending way beyond the resources of this country? Ruining this country with immigration steadiy soaring?
Ed Balls and Milliband are as dangerous as their dangerous nonsense polices demonstrate fortuitously. Sadly there are voters who regard their free handouts from Labour as the very stuff of life. Completely unsustainable and suicidal for this country. We have just had five years of Austerity trying to repair some of the most serious damage Labour managed to infliction on this country in last two Labour governments. Please God, not again. The damage still requires further work to be fully corrected and the UK needs a practical honest government that will grasp the problems and continue in ths vein? Please!
I was speaking with my brother last night, and some of his university friends had said they were voting Labour.Never please NEVER ever again!
You are of course entirely correct that this a possibility. However I fervently hope never again in my lifetime ths is too awful to contemplate. More self serving Aparatchics, ridiculous taxation, more meanness nonsense polices, all causing greater and greater costs to the poor taxpayers. The welfare state out of contol and spending way beyond the resources of this country? Ruining this country with immigration steadiy soaring?
Ed Balls and Milliband are as dangerous as their dangerous nonsense polices demonstrate fortuitously. Sadly there are voters who regard their free handouts from Labour as the very stuff of life. Completely unsustainable and suicidal for this country. We have just had five years of Austerity trying to repair some of the most serious damage Labour managed to infliction on this country in last two Labour governments. Please God, not again. The damage still requires further work to be fully corrected and the UK needs a practical honest government that will grasp the problems and continue in ths vein? Please!
And a few work in councils as planners.
This highlights the stupidity, greed and ignorance that a great deal of intelligent people will exhibit.
Firstly they have a job that is to represent people via a regional council. But they see the job as a security for themselves.
They then vote to protect their gravy train job and the rights for people to leech off society, but fail to see that the very same leeching will slowly destroy our country.
The only reason it hasn't is that sensible people take the helm occasionally... or non-government generated socio-economic booms allow us to run a bad ship for a while and do 'ok'.
But this is encouraged. And even the Conservative party prefer this type of crony activity. Corruption and self-serving is rife. Everyone has a price.
What this country needs is a top-down change in attitudes to fix it's ills.
A vote for Conservative for example, just encourages their idea that corruption is ok. It's not. If the world slips tits up into recession and deflation, I could easily see the retarded Conservatives take us into the EU simply so their wealthy friends can have a few more billions on their balance books and they all get to have a jolly on the EU gravy train once they're done in the UK political scene.
Dave
Andy Zarse said:
Interesting chart claiming that Greece would be the only 'advanced economy' to default on an IMF loan. This pretence is a large part of why we are where we are. Greece is not an advanced economy. It has always been a scarcely functioning agrarian economy which had to lie about its performance to get into the Euro. Mr Whippy said:
Steffan said:
NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOHHHHhHHH !!!!!! " quite likely with Labour at the helm again".
Never please NEVER ever again!
You are of course entirely correct that this a possibility. However I fervently hope never again in my lifetime ths is too awful to contemplate. More self serving Aparatchics, ridiculous taxation, more meanness nonsense polices, all causing greater and greater costs to the poor taxpayers. The welfare state out of contol and spending way beyond the resources of this country? Ruining this country with immigration steadiy soaring?
Ed Balls and Milliband are as dangerous as their dangerous nonsense polices demonstrate fortuitously. Sadly there are voters who regard their free handouts from Labour as the very stuff of life. Completely unsustainable and suicidal for this country. We have just had five years of Austerity trying to repair some of the most serious damage Labour managed to infliction on this country in last two Labour governments. Please God, not again. The damage still requires further work to be fully corrected and the UK needs a practical honest government that will grasp the problems and continue in ths vein? Please!
I was speaking with my brother last night, and some of his university friends had said they were voting Labour.Never please NEVER ever again!
You are of course entirely correct that this a possibility. However I fervently hope never again in my lifetime ths is too awful to contemplate. More self serving Aparatchics, ridiculous taxation, more meanness nonsense polices, all causing greater and greater costs to the poor taxpayers. The welfare state out of contol and spending way beyond the resources of this country? Ruining this country with immigration steadiy soaring?
Ed Balls and Milliband are as dangerous as their dangerous nonsense polices demonstrate fortuitously. Sadly there are voters who regard their free handouts from Labour as the very stuff of life. Completely unsustainable and suicidal for this country. We have just had five years of Austerity trying to repair some of the most serious damage Labour managed to infliction on this country in last two Labour governments. Please God, not again. The damage still requires further work to be fully corrected and the UK needs a practical honest government that will grasp the problems and continue in ths vein? Please!
And a few work in councils as planners.
This highlights the stupidity, greed and ignorance that a great deal of intelligent people will exhibit.
Firstly they have a job that is to represent people via a regional council. But they see the job as a security for themselves.
They then vote to protect their gravy train job and the rights for people to leech off society, but fail to see that the very same leeching will slowly destroy our country.
The only reason it hasn't is that sensible people take the helm occasionally... or non-government generated socio-economic booms allow us to run a bad ship for a while and do 'ok'.
But this is encouraged. And even the Conservative party prefer this type of crony activity. Corruption and self-serving is rife. Everyone has a price.
What this country needs is a top-down change in attitudes to fix it's ills.
A vote for Conservative for example, just encourages their idea that corruption is ok. It's not. If the world slips tits up into recession and deflation, I could easily see the retarded Conservatives take us into the EU simply so their wealthy friends can have a few more billions on their balance books and they all get to have a jolly on the EU gravy train once they're done in the UK political scene.
Dave
However:
Regrettably I cannot see the current political system achieving that. Perhaps, but not solely, because in a substantial part, because, all of the political leaders are rich mens privileged children and in fact have followed very similar career paths into politics, now a very very lucrative game indeed. In consequence the formative years of the lives of Edward Milliband, David Cameron, Boris Johnson, George Osourne, Nicholas Clegg and Edward Balls have all been very very similar and very very comfortable. The best of everything always at hand. And so it must continue.
Perhaps unsurprisingly none of this lot, for they are fact one lot,mouth for themselves and almost indistinguishable politically from one from another are never, ever going to attempt any serious changes to the system that supports them all. British Politics. Why woud they? Politics simply being the means to ensure their personal success which is their joint and several end game.
Doubtless they will all be moving on to better more rewarding jobs just as Anthony Blair and Gordon Brown did immediately before them. That is the game that modern politics has become in the UK today. Change, if it does come, will be brought about by there being a real discernible difference in the leaders in politics and to the reality of the changes that they are genuinely suggesting. That will not come about yet I suggest. Whether the consequences of this coming election seriously changes the cosiness in British Politics that results from all the Poloticians being essentially in the same game, Me first, remains to be seen. Personally,I am not holding my breath. I think more of the same is much more likely.
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