Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 3]

[Walford]

Steffan said:

Regrettably I cannot see the current political system achieving that. Perhaps, but not solely, because in a substantial part, because, all of the political leaders are rich mens privileged children and in fact have followed very similar career paths into politics, now a very very lucrative game indeed. In consequence the formative years of the lives of Edward Milliband, David Cameron, Boris Johnson, George Osourne, Nicholas Clegg and Edward Balls have all been very very similar and very very comfortable. The best of everything always at hand. And so it must continue.

Well said
.

[YankeePorker]

Steffan said:

Regrettably I cannot see the current political system achieving that. Perhaps, but not solely, because in a substantial part, because, all of the political leaders are rich mens privileged children and in fact have followed very similar career paths into politics, now a very very lucrative game indeed. In consequence the formative years of the lives of Edward Milliband, David Cameron, Boris Johnson, George Osourne, Nicholas Clegg and Edward Balls have all been very very similar and very very comfortable. The best of everything always at hand. And so it must continue.

Depressing isn't it? I'm starting to think that democracy is a crock of crap and that a benign, intelligent dictator who can actually make long term plans is a better option. The current system encourages short term thinking - why invest in a long term plan that won't show results before your electoral term is up?

[Steffan]

YankeePorker said:

Steffan said:

Regrettably I cannot see the current political system achieving that. Perhaps, but not solely, because in a substantial part, because, all of the political leaders are rich mens privileged children and in fact have followed very similar career paths into politics, now a very very lucrative game indeed. In consequence the formative years of the lives of Edward Milliband, David Cameron, Boris Johnson, George Osourne, Nicholas Clegg and Edward Balls have all been very very similar and very very comfortable. The best of everything always at hand. And so it must continue.

Depressing isn't it? I'm starting to think that democracy is a crock of crap and that a benign, intelligent dictator who can actually make long term plans is a better option. The current system encourages short term thinking - why invest in a long term plan that won't show results before your electoral term is up?

As, (I think) Winston Curchill, quipped, as was his wont,

"Democracy is the worst form of government, apart from all the others!"

Which really does say it all I think.

"Be careful what you wish for" might also be another.

The current system of democracy, as it exsts in the UK today, was hard won by the desperate toil, effort and strife over many hundreds of years in the UK and we must never forget the sacrifices by millions of their very lives to defend our country time after time. But for that we would not be abe to express our opinions and discuss these matters as we do. Nor would the freedom of movement, employment and indeed any freedom be possible without those sacrifices.

For that reason, whilst I fully understand the reasons for your concern and frustration, that the current democratic system is not well served by modern politicians, which I agree it is not, I do think change from within this democratic system is what is needed and certainly not dictators who invariably remove the freedom of all otters. Absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.

I do have some hope that the combination of the Scottish vote shifting towards the SNP and way from the awful Labour Appraratchicks all vying to join the Westminster gravy train ASAP, from succeeding in. Sctland. That reduction should seriously weaken the numbers of Labour MP's which will be good. Equally I am hopeful that the UKIP rise will continue.

I do think that one way or another, there will be a referendum this year on the EU continuance by the UK. Sadly with referenda the wording of the question is absolutely paramount. Thus insurance salesmen years ago were taught to ask their clients "Do you want to protect your family?". Who is going to say no to that? Answer: nobody.

Hence the oroblem of how the referenda is worded.

Then there is the now very apparent question of will Greece actually be forced to leave the EU? That could on its own put the cat amongst the pigeons. We are living in interesting times and I am ever hoepful that change for the better will come. At least we have the freedom of expression to call for change. Long, indeed may that continue.

[LongQ]

So what are we looking at here Steffan?

Euro Spring?

5 years ago I had some hope that UKIP might just shake things up in a good way next time around once they had refined their policies.

Sadly this time around I have trouble to identify any of their policies and meanwhile the political malaise has moved ever closer to the common trough (perhaps also known as Common Purpose?).

Dictatorship is not (yet) the answer. Some rational politicians with a proper world view and local affinities might be enough. The problem is that does not come with any certainty of progress of any sort.

Edited by LongQ on Sunday 5th April 17:17

[tumble dryer]

Good post.

[911Gary]

Quietly dissapointed with Farrages campaign so far, most people have no idea what their policys are.Cameron and Millibands recent clippage showing them at the seaside with the familys was IMO humiliating contrived and choreographed and slimy,they take us for idiots they really do.
G

[wc98]

911Gary said:

Quietly dissapointed with Farrages campaign so far, most people have no idea what their policys are.Cameron and Millibands recent clippage showing them at the seaside with the familys was IMO humiliating contrived and choreographed and slimy,they take us for idiots they really do.
G

same here . i have a feeling there is something going on behind the scenes. farage has lost his spark at the very time he should be rising to the occasion. i have my suspicions,but will wait and see what comes out after the election.

[Steffan]

LongQ said:

So what are we looking at here Steffan?

Euro Spring?

5 years ago I had some hope that UKIP might just shake things up in a good way next time around once they had refined their policies.

Sadly this time around I have identify any of their policies and meanwhile the political malaise has moved ever closer to the common trough (perhaps also known as Common Purpose?).

Dictatorship is not (yet) the answer. Some rational politicians with a proper world view and local affinities might be enough. The problem is that does nit come with any certainty of progress of any sort.

911Gary said:

Quietly dissapointed with Farrages campaign so far, most people have no idea what their policys are.Cameron and Millibands recent clippage showing them at the seaside with the familys was IMO humiliating contrived and choreographed and slimy,they take us for idiots they really do.
G

I agree with both LQ and Gary.

I can only hope that the Farage failings will improve and the British voters will seek representation from a party who actually have a focus on getting the huge costs of the EU under control. It must surely be apparent that all of ther other parties are not interested in change, but solely in maintaining the status quo with themselves at the top and all on the gravy train that this has become. Me first has become their political mantra.

The Greek question will be decided before much longer I would suggest. Given the laughable antics that the EU are now getting up to in trying to make such an obviously failing economy appear solvent this not possible much longer I think. There are too many revision dates coming up from the original bsil out and too many existing debts that must be repaid that Greece cannot possiby repay in any way without yet further and further and further handouts from the EU. I do think the end is visibly approaching for Greece. At some point presumably the EU will say enough is enough?

What happens then is now the critical matter for the EU I think. There will be an almighty row once the consequences of this fraud become apparent. Certainly the individual Sovereign states within the Euro, who will have to bear the costs of this, will suddenly realise that they have been had in the net. There will be an almighty row. Whether the overwfhelming desire to maintain the EU irrespective of the costs, will prevail, remains to be seen. It might, France and Germany are very powerful acting together.

One way or another I am very hopefull that the Brtish election will bring change for the UK in terms of the mixture and therefore the policies of the major parties. If it does not do so in itself, then I suspect the UK will be dragged down by the disastrous consequences to the economy's of the EU that all this massive largesse and contunuance with baiiing out failing states must produce. Sadly if the same policies are followed by the UK in then next government and no successful moves are made to reform the wastefulness of the EU then we will all be going the road to Hell in a handcart, I fear.

[turbobloke]

911Gary said:

Quietly dissapointed with Farrages campaign so far, most people have no idea what their policys are.Cameron and Millibands recent clippage showing them at the seaside with the familys was IMO humiliating contrived and choreographed and slimy,they take us for idiots they really do.
G

Talking of choreographed, there's always Red Ed's 'off the cuff' remarks and 'spontaneous' one-liner put-downs.

Article said:

Ed Miliband used crib sheets calling himself a "happy warrior" with scripted jokes during the live television debate. The 10 pages of notes contained a motivational pep talk to himself along with some of his off the cuff answers and put downs.

Happy Warrior, no; Hippy Marxist yes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliba...

Being a millionaire champagne socialist must be tough. He should take a leaf out of Dave's book and chillax. No matter what happens, a second wind at the EU trough surely beckons as per the useless Kinnocks.

[DJRC]

The cause and the symptom on the malaise is still the same as it was when I first started banging the drum God knows how long ago now...hope.

The cause is the lack of hope. The constant fking pessimism:

We're all doomed!!! Its all corrupt! They're all the same!!
No, we aren't. No, it isn't. No, they aren't. Stop fking navel gazing ffs. Its a big wide world, so put your big girl pants on and man up.

The symptom of the malaise is the lack of hope. The constant fking pessimism:
Its all downhill! There is no future in Europe! Its only about debt! Britain is so expensive! it will never get better!
No it isn't. Yes, there quite obviously is. No it isn't, there is a st load of money an wealth on offer to anybody who wants to earn it and whatsmore debt will never be this cheap again. Britain is cheap as fking chips which anybody would know if they had much experience outside Britain. Its almost certainly never been better in modern history. Throughout Britain.

Life isn't st folks. You have to keep in mind one of the greatest lines in pop history: The future's so bright - I gotta wear shades!

There is a reason the SNP and Sturgeon are doing so well at the moment, they are the only "mainstream" politically party that are campaigning on a brighter future. Yes, their economics are a bit ropey, but they are selling hope. Labour haven't got a fking hope in hell against that in Scotland and if the Lib Dems don't want to get butt fked from Inverness to Penzance they need to twig that that is their Get Out of Jail card. Hammer the hope message. They helped stabilise and then turn the economy around and the next 5 yrs will be part of the upward economic swing - sell it sell it sell it.

[LongQ]

turbobloke said:

Being a millionaire champagne socialist must be tough. He should take a leaf out of Dave's book and chillax. No matter what happens, a second wind at the EU trough surely beckons as per the useless Kinnocks.

I wonder if now would be a good time to set up a tumbril factory?

Could one get an EU grant I wonder? Perhaps if one was to present the concept as mobile solar energy platforms? Self igniting versions would save the infrastructure cost of having to erect stakes (and be better for business - why should the stake manufacturers have it all their own way?)

[Steffan]

turbobloke said:

911Gary said:

Quietly dissapointed with Farrages campaign so far, most people have no idea what their policys are.Cameron and Millibands recent clippage showing them at the seaside with the familys was IMO humiliating contrived and choreographed and slimy,they take us for idiots they really do.
G

Talking of choreographed, there's always Red Ed's 'off the cuff' remarks and 'spontaneous' one-liner put-downs.

Article said:

Ed Miliband used crib sheets calling himself a "happy warrior" with scripted jokes during the live television debate. The 10 pages of notes contained a motivational pep talk to himself along with some of his off the cuff answers and put downs.

Happy Warrior, no; Hippy Marxist yes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliba...

Being a millionaire champagne socialist must be tough. He should take a leaf out of Dave's book and chillax. No matter what happens, a second wind at the EU trough surely beckons as per the useless Kinnocks.

Oh! Dearie me, indeed. I entirely agree.

This is the reality of the opportunies that abject failure in UK politics can offer to the self serving politicians. Kinnock lost spectacularly to John Major and then he procceded to acquire several very well paid, very easy high positions within the EU nonsense for himself and his family. It is utterly dsgraceful. Glynis, their son and so on all on the EU payroll minting it at our expense.

I am still hopeful that the Uriah Heap tendancies of Milliband and appalling personal presentation skills will utterly scupper his chances. No guarantees though he could well be next on the gravy train that the EU has become.

[turbobloke]

DJRC said:

The constant fking pessimism

There sure are reasons for optimism, given the UK is outside the EZ. And if Miliband is the next PM some of us including your good self no doubt will make a bigger buck. Even so I'd rather trouser a bit less with a new Tory government and eventually a new Tory leader.

[RYH64E]

DJRC said:

The cause and the symptom on the malaise is still the same as it was when I first started banging the drum God knows how long ago now...hope.

The cause is the lack of hope. The constant fking pessimism:

We're all doomed!!! Its all corrupt! They're all the same!!
No, we aren't. No, it isn't. No, they aren't. Stop fking navel gazing ffs. Its a big wide world, so put your big girl pants on and man up.

The symptom of the malaise is the lack of hope. The constant fking pessimism:
Its all downhill! There is no future in Europe! Its only about debt! Britain is so expensive! it will never get better!
No it isn't. Yes, there quite obviously is. No it isn't, there is a st load of money an wealth on offer to anybody who wants to earn it and whatsmore debt will never be this cheap again. Britain is cheap as fking chips which anybody would know if they had much experience outside Britain. Its almost certainly never been better in modern history. Throughout Britain.

Life isn't st folks. You have to keep in mind one of the greatest lines in pop history: The future's so bright - I gotta wear shades!

There is a reason the SNP and Sturgeon are doing so well at the moment, they are the only "mainstream" politically party that are campaigning on a brighter future. Yes, their economics are a bit ropey, but they are selling hope. Labour haven't got a fking hope in hell against that in Scotland and if the Lib Dems don't want to get butt fked from Inverness to Penzance they need to twig that that is their Get Out of Jail card. Hammer the hope message. They helped stabilise and then turn the economy around and the next 5 yrs will be part of the upward economic swing - sell it sell it sell it.

Couldn't agree more. Life is good, there's plenty of opportunity out there for those with the balls to make the most of it, and our current position inside the EU makes it easier.

Instead of working out how much tax they can take from our business people Labour should be encouraging them to get out there and make more money, sell more stuff, employ more people, and hence pay more tax on all the profit they make. In a rare moment of common sense for a Labour politician, Mandelson once said he was 'intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich', it's a shame the current crop have reverted to type and see people becoming filthy rich as a bad thing.

[Mermaid]

RYH64E said:

Instead of working out how much tax they can take from our business people Labour should be encouraging them to get out there and make more money, sell more stuff, employ more people, and hence pay more tax on all the profit they make. In a rare moment of common sense for a Labour politician, Mandelson once said he was 'intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich', it's a shame the current crop have reverted to type and see people becoming filthy rich as a bad thing.

The Tories are saying those things, so they have to differentiate themselves from that nasty party. Hope that keeps them out.

[DJRC]

turbobloke said:

DJRC said:

The constant fking pessimism

There sure are reasons for optimism, given the UK is outside the EZ. And if Miliband is the next PM some of us including your good self no doubt will make a bigger buck. Even so I'd rather trouser a bit less with a new Tory government and eventually a new Tory leader.

Not a single word you posted there actually made sense. Wtf does it being Milliband or CMD have a single iota to do with what I posted above except to reinforce my "we're all doomed" message? Party politics is irrelevant to my post.

[turbobloke]

DJRC said:

turbobloke said:

DJRC said:

The constant fking pessimism

There sure are reasons for optimism, given the UK is outside the EZ. And if Miliband is the next PM some of us including your good self no doubt will make a bigger buck. Even so I'd rather trouser a bit less with a new Tory government and eventually a new Tory leader.

Not a single word you posted there actually made sense. Wtf does it being Milliband or CMD have a single iota to do with what I posted above except to reinforce my "we're all doomed" message? Party politics is irrelevant to my post.

Of course it's not irrelevant. I was addressing a claimed constant mood of pessimism. Your quote is up there so you can check it out.

You're talking rubbish presumably for the effect and to disagree for the sake of it - old habits etc.

Outside the EZ the UK economy is growing at a faster rate, wages are on the up, people and businesses are starting to spend more. If you'd prefer to trade from a position inside the EZ with overall conditions as they are, then with free movement of labour you can do just that, others are well-placed in the UK so there are grounds for optimism.

Party politics is part of what generates optimism and pessimism on the domestic front, maybe you forgot you mentioned pessimism (see above).

Miliband is likely to tax more, but also borrow more and spend more. Some of us do reasonably well in business terms under any flavour of politician but particularly so when there's more money around - if none of that applies to you then fair enough you may see that as not making sense but you'd still be wrong.

[RYH64E]

turbobloke said:

Some of us do reasonably well in business terms under any flavour of politician but particularly so when there's more money around

I guess it's an ill wind that blows nobody any good, but there can't be many business people expecting to do better under a Labour government. The latest poll shows 75% of FTSE 100 chairman polled think Miliband would be a catastrophe for the economy (I guess the other 25% take comfort from Labour's promise of no referendum on EU membership...).

[turbobloke]

RYH64E said:

turbobloke said:

Some of us do reasonably well in business terms under any flavour of politician but particularly so when there's more money around

I guess it's an ill wind that blows nobody any good, but there can't be many business people expecting to thrive under a Labour government. The latest poll shows 75% of FTSE 100 chairman polled think Miliband would be a catastrophe for the economy (I guess the other 25% take comfort from Labour's promise of no referendum on EU membership...).

Agreed in terms of the prospect of Miliband rather than CMD in No.10 affecting optimism i.e. causing pessimism, it's obvious really, but in answer to your question and on the basis of trading over the last 20 years, yes I would expect to see turnover and profit increase more with Labour at the helm. Even so I'd prefer not to be in that position as it'll be more than OK with a Conservative government (or Conservative-led coalition). I'm also happy not to be in the EZ looking out, if that's not too much optimism for one post. Business mileage will vary as we're not all in the same game.

[DJRC]

turbobloke said:

DJRC said:

turbobloke said:

DJRC said:

The constant fking pessimism

There sure are reasons for optimism, given the UK is outside the EZ. And if Miliband is the next PM some of us including your good self no doubt will make a bigger buck. Even so I'd rather trouser a bit less with a new Tory government and eventually a new Tory leader.

Not a single word you posted there actually made sense. Wtf does it being Milliband or CMD have a single iota to do with what I posted above except to reinforce my "we're all doomed" message? Party politics is irrelevant to my post.

Of course it's not irrelevant. I was addressing a claimed constant mood of pessimism. Your quote is up there so you can check it out.

You're talking rubbish presumably for the effect and to disagree for the sake of it - old habits etc.

Outside the EZ the UK economy is growing at a faster rate, wages are on the up, people and businesses are starting to spend more. If you'd prefer to trade from a position inside the EZ with overall conditions as they are, then with free movement of labour you can do just that, others are well-placed in the UK so there are grounds for optimism.

Party politics is part of what generates optimism and pessimism on the domestic front, maybe you forgot you mentioned pessimism (see above).

Miliband is likely to tax more, but also borrow more and spend more. Some of us do reasonably well in business terms under any flavour of politician but particularly so when there's more money around - if none of that applies to you then fair enough you may see that as not making sense but you'd still be wrong.

One day I will actually get used to you swinging and missing So, two for two on the "missed the point" scale. Hitter number 3 or we going safe for a tap n run?