Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 3]

Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 3]

Author
Discussion

Steffan

10,362 posts

227 months

Saturday 25th April 2015
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Gargamel said:
Love the comments on the ZH article

Especially this one that deserves a wide audience

"We Detrioted a small Island.

We Detroited a small country this time.

Mainland country next.

We have more patience than you have money"

Props to Arnold - whoever you are.
Indeed!

All gone very very quiet on the EU front. No doubt the EU are hoping the Greeks will have a change of heart. Given the left wing swing of Syruza and the reality of the policies that Greece is following I cannot see any such turn currently?

Couple of commentaries from the BBC abd Reyters.

See:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-32445535

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/25/us-euroz...

Not much love lost towards Varoufakis by the EU it woukd seem from the commentaries in the media. Unless Greece can either bounce the EU into offerring further massive non returnable subsidies from the EU to Greece to hold this together it does seem highly probable that the crunch is finally coming.

Not before time. It has become ever more apparent over the last three years that Greece returning to solvency was a real pipe dream without any realistic economic reasoning or principles being appiled by the EU to the visible disintegration of the Greek economy. This is not coming right and given the policies and attitude of Greece it will never come right until reality dawns over this nonsense. The EU may still find some way of extending this mess but I rather doubt it.

Certainly Greece is not going to recover solvency. Once the free EU subsidy stops, then the party will end. Without subsidy Greece cannot survive. That collapse will alter the perception and unity of the EU as it has become. Lot of under the counter talk in the EU and media hinting that this cannot go on and the delay and crunch coming up for Greece may well be the beginning of the end of this?

What to others on PH think? Are there any real prospects of further real negotiations in this matter or are the EU Simply hunkering down and waiting for the abject insolvency of Greece to make the continuation impossible.? Not ther decision if that takes place which may be important to the EU. Better to have clean hands at the sides of the action? Difficult times.



Walford

2,259 posts

165 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
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When you look at labour on 33% we are not that far behind greece, in terms of voting in loonies

AstonZagato

12,652 posts

209 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.”

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
Conservatives are loonies too.

They just want to spend a bit less, while shafting the average hard working person.

They're in it for their crony mates more than the average person so don't expect policy that rewards the hard working person either.

turbobloke

103,744 posts

259 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
Conservatives are loonies too.

They just want to spend a bit less, while shafting the average hard working person.

They're in it for their crony mates more than the average person so don't expect policy that rewards the hard working person either.
They're not loonies though, they know better how to manage a national economy (the key issue) and the Party that shafts the working man and woman is Labour.

As to mates, Labour love hanging off the coat-tails of the rich. Vilify on the one hand but ingratiate on the other. Two-faced, as usual.

johnxjsc1985

15,948 posts

163 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
Conservatives are loonies too.

They just want to spend a bit less, while shafting the average hard working person.

They're in it for their crony mates more than the average person so don't expect policy that rewards the hard working person either.
Who are the hard working people the Conservatives want to shaft sounds a bit Ed Like to me.
You could be a daily Mirror headline writer.
the Conservatives are honest in so much the do look after their own always have done but Labour all good hard working people who have gone into Politics to look after other hard working men and women.
only one problem they all live in very expensive houses all have a Degree in Politics and have never actually had a paid job and certainly not one that involved getting their hands dirty.

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
turbobloke said:
They're not loonies though, they know better how to manage a national economy (the key issue) and the Party that shafts the working man and woman is Labour.

As to mates, Labour love hanging off the coat-tails of the rich. Vilify on the one hand but ingratiate on the other. Two-faced, as usual.
So they're the same as Labour, but are slightly better at knowing how to manage a national economy?

I'd argue that they're better at managing and economy, but still miles off doing a really good job for the national economy.

They're still dragging the UK back by being too under the control of the interests of large multi-nationals, and still too starry eyed at what EU membership can offer their political career in the longer run.


A Conservative government could be the one to hand away a lot of our powers to corporations and the EU political system through TTIP and EU membership in the near future.
How is that not loony? It's purely for their own, or their wealthy corporate friends interests... not the 99.99% of hard working people who make up the voting public's long term interests.

Dave

YankeePorker

4,763 posts

240 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
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Steffan said:
What to others on PH think? Are there any real prospects of further real negotiations in this matter or are the EU Simply hunkering down and waiting for the abject insolvency of Greece to make the continuation impossible.? Not ther decision if that takes place which may be important to the EU. Better to have clean hands at the sides of the action? Difficult times.
I think the EU are playing chicken and think that the Greek government will blink first. They believe that fear of going it alone will eventually override the political dogma of Syriza and who knows, maybe they're right?

I really wish that the Greeks would hold a referendum on staying in the €zone so that the government would at least have a mandate (or not) to play this game down to the wire. Then the EU would blink first in my opinion, despite all the Draghi statements on the tolerability of a GREXIT. The precedent set by a GREXIT must scare them witless, smashing all that three muskateers "all for one etc." crap.

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
Given all the Euro currency members NIRPing away even without the GREXIT issues, it's a bleak time ahead full stop for the EZ.

Personally I'm not worried about Greece, their fate is sealed. Debt slaves or paupers is guaranteed now, though the latter should be preferable with a generational outlook imo.

I'm worried about the UK and if NIRP finds it's way into Sterling at this point... being savvy and sensible with a healthy bank balance seems to get you shafted when the central banks go all NIRP.

Cyprus, Greece, Austria somewhat... the boogeyman bail ins are coming. At least Greece has a chance to get out of the st show NOW!

Dave

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
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Mr Whippy said:
turbobloke said:
They're not loonies though, they know better how to manage a national economy (the key issue) and the Party that shafts the working man and woman is Labour.

As to mates, Labour love hanging off the coat-tails of the rich. Vilify on the one hand but ingratiate on the other. Two-faced, as usual.
So they're the same as Labour, but are slightly better at knowing how to manage a national economy?

I'd argue that they're better at managing and economy, but still miles off doing a really good job for the national economy.

They're still dragging the UK back by being too under the control of the interests of large multi-nationals, and still too starry eyed at what EU membership can offer their political career in the longer run.


A Conservative government could be the one to hand away a lot of our powers to corporations and the EU political system through TTIP and EU membership in the near future.
How is that not loony? It's purely for their own, or their wealthy corporate friends interests... not the 99.99% of hard working people who make up the voting public's long term interests.

Dave
So what policies would you introduce in order to significantly improve the economy?

The fact is that the average hard working person is shafted by the Conservatives a lot less than the highly paid hard working person and everything you say about Europe will happen a lot quicker with Labour in charge than the Tories, who also have many wealthy corporate friends.

turbobloke

103,744 posts

259 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
Mr Whippy said:
turbobloke said:
They're not loonies though, they know better how to manage a national economy (the key issue) and the Party that shafts the working man and woman is Labour.

As to mates, Labour love hanging off the coat-tails of the rich. Vilify on the one hand but ingratiate on the other. Two-faced, as usual.
So they're the same as Labour, but are slightly better at knowing how to manage a national economy?

I'd argue that they're better at managing and economy, but still miles off doing a really good job for the national economy.

They're still dragging the UK back by being too under the control of the interests of large multi-nationals, and still too starry eyed at what EU membership can offer their political career in the longer run.


A Conservative government could be the one to hand away a lot of our powers to corporations and the EU political system through TTIP and EU membership in the near future.
How is that not loony? It's purely for their own, or their wealthy corporate friends interests... not the 99.99% of hard working people who make up the voting public's long term interests.

Dave
So what policies would you introduce in order to significantly improve the economy?

The fact is that the average hard working person is shafted by the Conservatives a lot less than the highly paid hard working person and everything you say about Europe will happen a lot quicker with Labour in charge than the Tories, who also have many wealthy corporate friends.
If the Conservatives had sensible policies over Energy and Environment it would save £hundredsofbillions and reduce business and household costs significantly. This would be a major boost to the economy.

Also @ Mr Whippy, the comment "so they're the same as Labour" - except for economic stewardship - doesn't follow from what I posted. Nor would I agree that the Tories are under the control of multi-national corporations. Conservative economic policy recognises what's good for Britain.


Edited by turbobloke on Sunday 26th April 17:41

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
So what policies would you introduce in order to significantly improve the economy?

The fact is that the average hard working person is shafted by the Conservatives a lot less than the highly paid hard working person and everything you say about Europe will happen a lot quicker with Labour in charge than the Tories, who also have many wealthy corporate friends.
They're just a less st shade of brown, but they're still st coloured.

Policies are pretty easy but they are not viable in current UK politics, never mind under EU ones, or corporate dictated ones.

Just because the Tories will take us down a dark road more slowly isn't good. They shouldn't be taking us down it full stop if it's not what people want. Well some do, a very narrow section of society...


But hey, vote away. We'll just be part of neo communist EU a bit slower.

Unless you think Greece are some isolated case, rather than the first case of a failing global economy and super state.


Let's see if the Cons really have the balls to get out of Europe!



Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
But hey, vote away. We'll just be part of neo communist EU a bit slower.

Unless you think Greece are some isolated case, rather than the first case of a failing global economy and super state.


Let's see if the Cons really have the balls to get out of Europe!
Handy to have the next 2 crucial years to help them decide.

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
I won't pretend there is really a significant better alternative.


I just worry that Conservatives haven't done anything to say they'll take us further from, or out of Europe, bar a 'promise' of a referendum.

Personally I think that Conservatives want to take us at full throttle into the EU just as much as Labour and all the others do. Any excuse and that referendum will be forgotten.

"exceptional circumstances" "security of the continent" "security of our futures" "terrorism" yadda yadda. Roll out the 'think of the children' statement in disguise and people will lap it up... while unwittingly selling their children's futures down the river for the benefit of the uber wealthy and political elites.



I just hope that the EU fails spectacularly before the UK gets entangled it in any further than it is already.

Any further and we'll also be helping to bail in everyone in the EU when the poo storm kicks off proper.


I didn't "work hard" as David Cameron puts it, to have a Cyprus style bail in on my hard saved money! Yet the irony is, the lying st bag will probably put the 'hard working' British peoples wealth in the most risky position ever by keeping us on this path into Europe.


So much for rewarding hard working people!

wc98

10,334 posts

139 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
So they're the same as Labour, but are slightly better at knowing how to manage a national economy?

I'd argue that they're better at managing and economy, but still miles off doing a really good job for the national economy.

They're still dragging the UK back by being too under the control of the interests of large multi-nationals, and still too starry eyed at what EU membership can offer their political career in the longer run.


A Conservative government could be the one to hand away a lot of our powers to corporations and the EU political system through TTIP and EU membership in the near future.
How is that not loony? It's purely for their own, or their wealthy corporate friends interests... not the 99.99% of hard working people who make up the voting public's long term interests.

Dave
well said.

Steffan

10,362 posts

227 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
Mermaid said:
Mr Whippy said:
But hey, vote away. We'll just be part of neo communist EU a bit slower.

Unless you think Greece are some isolated case, rather than the first case of a failing global economy and super state.


Let's see if the Cons really have the balls to get out of Europe!
Handy to have the next 2 crucial years to help them decide.
All getting very tricky for the EU currently I think? The EU does seem to me to be bent on centralising all the power within the core of the EU functions? I personally have always found the ease of travel,working and circulating within the EU most benefcial. Personally the EU has been beneficial to me.

However I cannot see the non accountable and remote structures that have been developed within the huge bureacracy that has arisen within the EU, continuing, primarily because of the innate exceses and obvious overspending that seems to have become endemic within the current bloated structure.

The USA has a far better management system for their federal administrations and more sensible governance structre over the operation of their federal states integration. And a much more accessible Presidential direct electoral system and two houses of governance. This does ensure that tricky balance of effectively controlling power is struck. Not a perfect system but far more manageable I think?

Frankly I am doubtful whether the EU model actually can work given the complexities of the Greek nonsense that have been allowed to develop and the year on year abject failure by the EU to either recognise the glaring problems or address them.

What might have been a real success story seems to me to be steadily dissolving into individual state survival at the expense of the EU taxpayers?

For all those reasons, I think there are going to be a whole series of singularly difficult questions for the EU to answer? On balance I think it is very doubtful whether the EU can provide any satisfactory answers.

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
Steffan said:
All getting very tricky for the EU currently I think? The EU does seem to me to be bent on centralising all the power within the core of the EU functions? I personally have always found the ease of travel,working and circulating within the EU most benefcial. Personally the EU has been beneficial to me.

However I cannot see the non accountable and remote structures that have been developed within the huge bureacracy that has arisen within the EU, continuing, primarily because of the innate exceses and obvious overspending that seems to have become endemic within the current bloated structure.

The USA has a far better management system for their federal administrations and more sensible governance structre over the operation of their federal states integration. And a much more accessible Presidential direct electoral system and two houses of governance. This does ensure that tricky balance of effectively controlling power is struck. Not a perfect system but far more manageable I think?

Frankly I am doubtful whether the EU model actually can work given the complexities of the Greek nonsense that have been allowed to develop and the year on year abject failure by the EU to either recognise the glaring problems or address them.

What might have been a real success story seems to me to be steadily dissolving into individual state survival at the expense of the EU taxpayers?

For all those reasons, I think there are going to be a whole series of singularly difficult questions for the EU to answer? On balance I think it is very doubtful whether the EU can provide any satisfactory answers.
We've been sold 'big is better' in every facet of our lives but it's not been better except for the very few.

Economies of scale just scales up the skimming from the top 0.01% or so, NOT being advantageous to the majority.

You mention free roam in Europe and all that jazz, yep, handy, but at no point does all the other crap have to come with it.

We can have ALL the good of the EU for the normal person, just not in the EU we have now.



The EU is done, from the currency to the union. No questions to answer. No nothing. Just time now. The Greek fiasco and Cyprus bail ins and nirp has told us all we need to know.

The big question is are we dumb enough to join in at this point? Essentially getting on the Titanic after it hit the iceberg?


Anyone voting for a party that guarantees further Union is voting for communism to put it bluntly.



JensenA

5,671 posts

229 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
Steffan - you've been saying all this since Jume 2011 smile. When do you think the Euro will actually end?

Steffan

10,362 posts

227 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
Steffan said:
All getting very tricky for the EU currently I think? The EU does seem to me to be bent on centralising all the power within the core of the EU functions? I personally have always found the ease of travel,working and circulating within the EU most benefcial. Personally the EU has been beneficial to me.

However I cannot see the non accountable and remote structures that have been developed within the huge bureacracy that has arisen within the EU, continuing, primarily because of the innate exceses and obvious overspending that seems to have become endemic within the current bloated structure.

The USA has a far better management system for their federal administrations and more sensible governance structre over the operation of their federal states integration. And a much more accessible Presidential direct electoral system and two houses of governance. This does ensure that tricky balance of effectively controlling power is struck. Not a perfect system but far more manageable I think?

Frankly I am doubtful whether the EU model actually can work given the complexities of the Greek nonsense that have been allowed to develop and the year on year abject failure by the EU to either recognise the glaring problems or address them.

What might have been a real success story seems to me to be steadily dissolving into individual state survival at the expense of the EU taxpayers?

For all those reasons, I think there are going to be a whole series of singularly difficult questions for the EU to answer? On balance I think it is very doubtful whether the EU can provide any satisfactory answers.
We've been sold 'big is better' in every facet of our lives but it's not been better except for the very few.

Economies of scale just scales up the skimming from the top 0.01% or so, NOT being advantageous to the majority.

You mention free roam in Europe and all that jazz, yep, handy, but at no point does all the other crap have to come with it.

We can have ALL the good of the EU for the normal person, just not in the EU we have now.



The EU is done, from the currency to the union. No questions to answer. No nothing. Just time now. The Greek fiasco and Cyprus bail ins and nirp has told us all we need to know.

The big question is are we dumb enough to join in at this point? Essentially getting on the Titanic after it hit the iceberg?


Anyone voting for a party that guarantees further Union is voting for communism to put it bluntly.
Indeed!

Certainly the EU have utterly failed to create a well managed structure and have effectively failed to manage any of these problems which have been entirely foreseeable and avoidable. The actual management of the EU have got their own snout's in the trough of being on the make personally as the awful stories of excessive salaries, excessive expense accounts and ridiculous living costs by EU politicians and bureaucrats have evidenced directly.

It is regrettably too late now for the EU to handwring and moan. Their mistakes and their grandiose personal lifestyles have fuelled this nonsense from the start. Mixed in with crazy out of control cronies within the states, surrendering to this stupidity, borrowing excessively and spending as if tomorrow would never come.

Well it has now and there will be consequences? Lot of changes coming PDQ in EU politics.

tumble dryer

1,999 posts

126 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
quotequote all
See (if I may), the thing is, WE know this.

WE who read this thread - even just Top Up on it, know the reality.

We are, if not quite finger on the pulse, at least 'aware'.

THEY, the other 99.99% aren't.



There's your problem.