Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 3]
Discussion
Blib said:
You are suggesting that the dealer continues to supply the addict?
No, I am suggesting that the either the dealer now (finally) cuts off supply, so that 1. The addict then goes through cold turkey, and returns to the real world, in a weakened, but able to proceed and get better state, or 2. they enter a program set out by the dealer to wean `themselves' off the drugs and booze, or 3. They carry on getting booze and drugs from `somewhere' else (Putin perhaps?) and they carry on doing drugs and booze until they reach oblivion. The choice as they say, is theirs to make.
Pan Pan Pan said:
Blib said:
You are suggesting that the dealer continues to supply the addict?
..... or 3. They carry on getting booze and drugs from `somewhere' else (Putin perhaps?) and they carry on doing drugs and booze until they reach oblivion. The choice as they say, is theirs to make.
Putin shouldn't be underestimated.
Driller said:
egor110 said:
How are they treated as second class citizens?
The fact is Greece has to impose public service cuts, they have to make people work until there older to make the savings and they refuse.
Oh come on, you must have had a weird, smelly kid in class who was much weaker than everyone else. I'm not saying it's normal to keep bailing them out, on the contrary, but from the PIV of the general public who are not to blame for anything in this, they must be pretty pissed off with the whole affair.The fact is Greece has to impose public service cuts, they have to make people work until there older to make the savings and they refuse.
Its them who have to accept working until the age of 70, paying more tax, registering births in rural areas.
aeropilot said:
I'm beginning to wonder if this left-wing Greek govt haven't been deliberately heading in this direction??.......and could we see Greece not only bail out of the EU but also out of NATO, and then the Russians suddenly have a very nice foothold in the eastern med, in exchange for some financial support, especially as it's naval bases in Syria (and Syria in general) seems to be now out of the picture for them.
Putin shouldn't be underestimated.
A substantial warm water port in the Med? Scary proposition.Putin shouldn't be underestimated.
Interesting to read the sheer volume of comments on here which reflects widely different view on how this Greek nonsense may eventually end up?
To my mind there are a number of factors that do now seem to be fairly generally accepted.
There are:
1) The financial position of Greece within the EU after five years of being bailed out is very precarious. Knife edged at best.
2) The EU have not been able to effect or manage any improvement in the Greek economy over five years of bail out.
3) The Syriza administration (?!) has not managed any improvements in the Greek economy whatsoever.
4) Equally the Greek governments over the last five years have never managed any improvements in the Greek economy
5) The failure of Greece to honour its debt repayment to the IMF is in effect a default by Greece.
6) The EU has lent a further undeclared sum to Greek banks beyond the 350 Billion, admitted, of probably in excess of 90 Billion Euros in attempting to sustain the Greek banks as solvent and therefore to be able to meet the withdrawals by Greeks.
7) Despite all the rhetoric Syriza have not come up with any realistic proposals to repay any of these debts.
8) Before the Referenda called by Syriza has even been cast, Syriza have already offered to accept the majority of the requirements of the EU continuing this bail out.
9) The nonsens spouted by Syriza is not helpful, typically socialist claptrap, and simply window dressing. Hence the latest offer to accept virtually all the EU requirement, without even waiting for results of the Referendum.
I could continue but that suffices I think? No doubt some will disagree with this assessement? But I hope that the point is made of the visible usustainability of this nonsence, when due consideration is given to the absolute failure of Syriza and the Greek government to effect any improvents within the Greek economy over five long years. Equally the absolute failure of the EU to effect any improvement within the Greek economy over five years of bail out is just unsustainable.
That being the case it seems to me to be self evident that the bail out has not resulted in any improvement whatsoever in the economic performance of Greece. Equally given the mercurial and aggressive approach of Syriza to the EU over this affair and their capacity to renage at will, on solemn agreements with the IMF without even an apology, demonstrates that to them this has become a game.. There really is no future in trying to continue with what must be seen as a hopless failure for both the EU and Greece? Unpleasant though the cosequences of Greek default may be, to both the EU and the Greeks seeking to extendthis nonsense, will simply extend the losses further and further and will not result in any recovery by Greece. I could contine but I am hopeful the point is made.
There is no future for any further attempts by the EU to enable Greece to recover or indeed for the Greeks to seek recovery. The reality is that time has moved on and five years of very expensive abject failure, has made continueance an impossibility. For all the problems a Greek default may cause both Greece and the EU, and all the solvent sovereign states within the Euo, who will ultimately be paying these costs, continuance is simply wholly unrealistic.
To my mind there are a number of factors that do now seem to be fairly generally accepted.
There are:
1) The financial position of Greece within the EU after five years of being bailed out is very precarious. Knife edged at best.
2) The EU have not been able to effect or manage any improvement in the Greek economy over five years of bail out.
3) The Syriza administration (?!) has not managed any improvements in the Greek economy whatsoever.
4) Equally the Greek governments over the last five years have never managed any improvements in the Greek economy
5) The failure of Greece to honour its debt repayment to the IMF is in effect a default by Greece.
6) The EU has lent a further undeclared sum to Greek banks beyond the 350 Billion, admitted, of probably in excess of 90 Billion Euros in attempting to sustain the Greek banks as solvent and therefore to be able to meet the withdrawals by Greeks.
7) Despite all the rhetoric Syriza have not come up with any realistic proposals to repay any of these debts.
8) Before the Referenda called by Syriza has even been cast, Syriza have already offered to accept the majority of the requirements of the EU continuing this bail out.
9) The nonsens spouted by Syriza is not helpful, typically socialist claptrap, and simply window dressing. Hence the latest offer to accept virtually all the EU requirement, without even waiting for results of the Referendum.
I could continue but that suffices I think? No doubt some will disagree with this assessement? But I hope that the point is made of the visible usustainability of this nonsence, when due consideration is given to the absolute failure of Syriza and the Greek government to effect any improvents within the Greek economy over five long years. Equally the absolute failure of the EU to effect any improvement within the Greek economy over five years of bail out is just unsustainable.
That being the case it seems to me to be self evident that the bail out has not resulted in any improvement whatsoever in the economic performance of Greece. Equally given the mercurial and aggressive approach of Syriza to the EU over this affair and their capacity to renage at will, on solemn agreements with the IMF without even an apology, demonstrates that to them this has become a game.. There really is no future in trying to continue with what must be seen as a hopless failure for both the EU and Greece? Unpleasant though the cosequences of Greek default may be, to both the EU and the Greeks seeking to extendthis nonsense, will simply extend the losses further and further and will not result in any recovery by Greece. I could contine but I am hopeful the point is made.
There is no future for any further attempts by the EU to enable Greece to recover or indeed for the Greeks to seek recovery. The reality is that time has moved on and five years of very expensive abject failure, has made continueance an impossibility. For all the problems a Greek default may cause both Greece and the EU, and all the solvent sovereign states within the Euo, who will ultimately be paying these costs, continuance is simply wholly unrealistic.
RYH64E said:
Here's a good article in The Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/g...
So you don't think a currency substantially cheaper than the Euro would help the Greek's major industries of agriculture and tourism? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/g...
Telegraph said:
It was, perhaps, a rally for Athens's answer to Britain's "shy Tories" – those Greeks who are quietly horrified at the way their country is now portrayed as feckless and lazy, and as some kind of European version of Hugo Chavez's Venezuela.
No one railed furiously about the Eurozone's finance chiefs, and no one called Angela Merkel a Nazi. Instead, some were even willing to say the unsayable: that when it came to Greece's financial problems, Greeks themselves were to blame and nobody else.
"The Greeks have always blamed foreigners for their problems," said Marcos Diamandes, 55, who runs a shoemaking business. "We have a habit of doing this, but we need to look in the mirror at ourselves. what have we done wrong? Everything. We have made the state too big."
Petros Mandis, 35, an accountant, agreed. The reason Greece couldn't pay its bills, he said, was not because of the demands of the Eurozone creditors, but because of its vast, inefficient public sector, bloated by generations of politicians who doled out government jobs as a form of patronage.
"We believe in the private sector, and we do not want lazy public servants paid for by our taxes," he said.
What Greece needs is reform, not a return to the Drachma.No one railed furiously about the Eurozone's finance chiefs, and no one called Angela Merkel a Nazi. Instead, some were even willing to say the unsayable: that when it came to Greece's financial problems, Greeks themselves were to blame and nobody else.
"The Greeks have always blamed foreigners for their problems," said Marcos Diamandes, 55, who runs a shoemaking business. "We have a habit of doing this, but we need to look in the mirror at ourselves. what have we done wrong? Everything. We have made the state too big."
Petros Mandis, 35, an accountant, agreed. The reason Greece couldn't pay its bills, he said, was not because of the demands of the Eurozone creditors, but because of its vast, inefficient public sector, bloated by generations of politicians who doled out government jobs as a form of patronage.
"We believe in the private sector, and we do not want lazy public servants paid for by our taxes," he said.
Incidentally, that elderly shoe-maker chappy is, ironically, talking old cobblers.
The Troika program has done nothing except strangulate the Greek economy. It was pure economic vandalism. This is the view of any reasonable economist, including those in the IMF who were aghast at L'Orange's decisions. So, yes the Greeks are largely guilty, but outsiders have at least partly to take their share of the blame for the mess; and bear their share of the costs too.
Edited by Andy Zarse on Wednesday 1st July 14:12
egor110 said:
Driller said:
egor110 said:
How are they treated as second class citizens?
The fact is Greece has to impose public service cuts, they have to make people work until there older to make the savings and they refuse.
Oh come on, you must have had a weird, smelly kid in class who was much weaker than everyone else. I'm not saying it's normal to keep bailing them out, on the contrary, but from the PIV of the general public who are not to blame for anything in this, they must be pretty pissed off with the whole affair.The fact is Greece has to impose public service cuts, they have to make people work until there older to make the savings and they refuse.
Its them who have to accept working until the age of 70, paying more tax, registering births in rural areas.
t pedalled by Drahgi et al?As for working until 70, I would totally understand the Greeks telling them to get stuffed on that one.
Vaud said:
aeropilot said:
I'm beginning to wonder if this left-wing Greek govt haven't been deliberately heading in this direction??.......and could we see Greece not only bail out of the EU but also out of NATO, and then the Russians suddenly have a very nice foothold in the eastern med, in exchange for some financial support, especially as it's naval bases in Syria (and Syria in general) seems to be now out of the picture for them.
Putin shouldn't be underestimated.
A substantial warm water port in the Med? Scary proposition.Putin shouldn't be underestimated.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
And Mr Varoufakis can also re-sack the symbolic 600 cleaners from the Ministry of Finance. How bloody big is it that it needs 600 bloody cleaners (in addition to the ones who weren't sacked?) In such times I would instruct all employees to clean their own offices. What's that you say? It's beneath their dignity and pay scale?
Tough. So is grovelling in the ditch for pennies.
Gaz. said:
Smollet said:
Greece as far as I'm aware is still a member of NATO so that might cause a few problems.
Would they care? They've just told the EU to do one so what's stopping them leaving NATO and getting into bed with Putin?k about anything these days but others might. The sooner they're gone from the EU the better for all concerned.Smollet said:
aeropilot said:
Not just having a warm water port, look at a map and see what 'control' of Greek territorial waters would give the Russians!!
Greece as far as I'm aware is still a member of NATO so that might cause a few problems. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff