Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 3]
Discussion
paulrockliffe said:
The ECB have increased the haircut on the collateral Greece is putting up against the 89bn smackers that the ECB are putting into Greek Banks.
Two questions; firstly, what does the above mean and what exactly is Greece using as collateral and how does the ECB seize the collateral when Greece doesn't return the 89bn smackers?
Which leads me on to my second question; if the ECB have put 89bn into the Greek banks as a temporary measure to ease the liquidity crisis and they only have 0.5bn left in the banks now, presumably it's been disbursed to various mattresses and won't be coming back. But the ECB had a meeting today where they discussed pulling all of the ELA lending, why would they bother doing that when the money is no longer there?
The real debt is at least £420billion. Two questions; firstly, what does the above mean and what exactly is Greece using as collateral and how does the ECB seize the collateral when Greece doesn't return the 89bn smackers?
Which leads me on to my second question; if the ECB have put 89bn into the Greek banks as a temporary measure to ease the liquidity crisis and they only have 0.5bn left in the banks now, presumably it's been disbursed to various mattresses and won't be coming back. But the ECB had a meeting today where they discussed pulling all of the ELA lending, why would they bother doing that when the money is no longer there?
Collateral has to be land/islands I mean honestly what else could they give which would come remotely close to that ? The banks shares... Lol soiled toilet paper is more valuable currently.
What has always been frustrating is the crazy assumption that they could afford to pay it back ever. The Greeks swindled the EU and borrowed hard on low interest rates helped by Germany. All these budgets which needed to be signed off by Brussels and deficits never allowed above x% lip service at best sweeping under the carpet or plain lies is more akin to the truth.
The sad part is those who made out of it have long got their money out and will likely leave Greece while other utterly innocent hard working people will face terrible hardship for decades and decades to come and they will either not be able or not even consider or not want to leave Greece.
If I were a Western hater or IS I'd be watching this very carefully and then putting in individuals to Greece for terrorism within Europe. When all hope is gone someone offering you hope of any kind or retribution.
Mermaid said:
Well stock markets have been volatile, as expected. Severe losses overnight to full recovery in early afternoon to deep losses later in the day, to day's highs at the close.
More tomorrow.
It's not that clear cut. More tomorrow.
Asian stocks have been moving a lot downward of late all due to productivity decreases and lower demand both now and the outlook. China is no longer the go to place for cheap goods as they are creating a middle class who rightly want more £. Also the currency is no longer held down low.
Amazing similarity between the polling results for both our general election and the Greek referendum.
Both hopelessly wrong but the worse part of it is that they influence wavering voters or the ones that just want to be on the winning side. It is highly likely that without them the results would have been even more in favour of the winners.
Time they were stopped.
Both hopelessly wrong but the worse part of it is that they influence wavering voters or the ones that just want to be on the winning side. It is highly likely that without them the results would have been even more in favour of the winners.
Time they were stopped.
Art0ir said:
China is goosed. Down 30% or something stupendous in the past few months. They've started a massive buying programme a la Great Depression style and it's achieved the same result; the square root of f
k all.
Yes, the Shanghai Composite index dropped the equivalent of 10 Greek GPDs (for 2014) in the space of about 2 weeks.k all. Beati Dogu said:
Art0ir said:
China is goosed. Down 30% or something stupendous in the past few months. They've started a massive buying programme a la Great Depression style and it's achieved the same result; the square root of fk all.
Yes, the Shanghai Composite index dropped the equivalent of 10 Greek GPDs (for 2014) in the space of about 2 weeks.k all. Wills2 said:
I've found this list (truncated) the figures seem to chime with my memory of the reports at the time.
That list is a matter of public record and reproduced in great detail here;https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list/simpl...
Contrary to the court of public opinion the US government made rather a lot of money out for the usual suspects.
davepoth said:
Beati Dogu said:
Art0ir said:
China is goosed. Down 30% or something stupendous in the past few months. They've started a massive buying programme a la Great Depression style and it's achieved the same result; the square root of fk all.
Yes, the Shanghai Composite index dropped the equivalent of 10 Greek GPDs (for 2014) in the space of about 2 weeks.k all. Edited by hidetheelephants on Tuesday 7th July 03:06
AJS- said:
Is that list a running total? I.e. $2.5 trillion spent total on bank bail outs?
But it's not though - it should show the NET and what you'll see is pretty much every one has paid back all and most made the Govt a very decent profit too. Sure left wing socialists will utterly ignore that but hey ho.
And not all of it was even paid in cash, much of it was in the form of guarantees. But never let the truth get in the way of a shocking stat for Facebook indignity!
On the other hand, if you were to take the EU members and institutions buying up of Greek debt as a bailout to the banks then you could argue it's even more.
On the other hand, if you were to take the EU members and institutions buying up of Greek debt as a bailout to the banks then you could argue it's even more.
I dare say you're right tonker, but it's pretty far from my, and I think most peoples, ideas of transparent and democratic government. It also casts the debt in a rather different light. This wasn't something Greece went to Germany with a begging bowl for, it was something sold to them by a company seeking profit.
If I were a German taxpayer I would probably be more annoyed that my government had bailed out a profit-making private bank than that Greece had borrowed money.
If I were a German taxpayer I would probably be more annoyed that my government had bailed out a profit-making private bank than that Greece had borrowed money.
Absolutely. It's the symbiotic relationship with the likes of the IMF and the European institutions that bothers me.
They should have been left to take the hit when Greece could no longer service its debts. Instead, they were essentially bailed out by taxpayers, who then funded the whole show for 5 years.
They should have been left to take the hit when Greece could no longer service its debts. Instead, they were essentially bailed out by taxpayers, who then funded the whole show for 5 years.
AJS- said:
Absolutely. It's the symbiotic relationship with the likes of the IMF and the European institutions that bothers me.
They should have been left to take the hit when Greece could no longer service its debts. Instead, they were essentially bailed out by taxpayers, who then funded the whole show for 5 years.
And are now likely to lose a lot of the money they put in.They should have been left to take the hit when Greece could no longer service its debts. Instead, they were essentially bailed out by taxpayers, who then funded the whole show for 5 years.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Very interesting exchange between AJS and Tonker in a series of contributions, with the added quip from RYH64E. I am bound to say, where else could you get such a stimulating discussion? I can only agree, essentially, with the tones of the arguments. As tonker says above, in some detail, this can only end, short term, with significant further cuts to Greek debts and a theatrical penitence by the Eurocrats and Leaders followed by a return to the nonsense that the EU has become in its present form. However I think the game is becoming much more difficult for the EU as the consequences of their incompetence and self interest become ever more visible and apparent. The EU may devise some dotty formula which ensnares Greece still within the EU. What the EU has demonstrated very effectively is that, without central fiscal controls, which are still a fair way away as yet, the EU cannot manage this matter effectively.
I also think reality time is gradually seeping through the nonsense spin that the EU have been covering this failure up with, iyet motevneffective failure, could well be the best description for the efforts of the EU in attempting to hold a failing state within this currency union. Then there is the question of contagion, and jealousy, on the other significant number of failing states within the EU, who may well immediately seek equal treatment to that of Greece?
For those reasons, whilst I do think ths nonsense may roll on a litte longer there is no "solution" as such in this either for or from the EU. There will be fundamental changes to the structure and extent of the largesse within the EU. Even then I remain doubtful that the UK referendum will provide the required vote sought by Caneron possibly only a year away now. We are living in changing times and I remain convinced changes will be coming to the EU.
That Goldman Conspiracy in full - if you like that kind of thing
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-06/who-bigge...
Though oddly for Mr Durden, DSK and Bilderberg don't get a mention.
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