Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 3]

[anonymous-user]

Luke Warm said:

You may want to make a cup of tea first.

• Total debt 500% of GDP (household, government, corporate)
• Inflation virtually non-existent
• Record high current account deficit
• 3rd highest budget deficit in the European Union
• Productivity 20% lower than Germany
• Consumer debt twice EU average
• House prices five times average earnings
• Highest rents in Europe (higher than Switzerland!)
• British homes have smallest rooms in Western Europe
• Train fares 50% higher than rest of Europe
• Petrol and diesel 12% higher than rest of Europe
• Roads more congested than any major EU country
• Most expensive fruit and veg in the European Union
• 1.8 million single parent households (650,000 of which are not in any sort of work)
• Highest abortion rate in Western Europe
• Young people unhappiest and 'most alienated' in Europe
• Double the EU average of under-18s with no working parent at home
• More than half the population is overweight
• British people are least likely in Europe to intervene if they witness a crime
• Highest use of cocaine, ecstasy, and amphetamines in the EU
• Worst cancer survival rates in Western Europe
• Highest rate of deaths from strokes in the western world
• Teenage pregnancy, violent crime, and shoplifting capital of Europe
• Ranked 21st for science, 23rd for reading, and 26th for maths out of 65 countries
• 22% of children leave school functionally innumerate
• 17% are functionally illiterate
• Social mobility has not improved in 30 years

The list goes on and on...

Edited by Luke Warm on Friday 21st August 16:43

Good list
But I don't see families in Dover Beach cramming into a raft to depart for a better life
Things look fine around here. If it's that bad, what are the other places like?

[Steffan]

Andy Zarse said:

Digga said:

Walford said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

IF the EU is a body of nations, then in terms of the EU Greece is the equivalent of a gangrenous foot.
I never understood why markets sank on the prospect of Grexit, but improved when Greece`s bailout deal was announced.
Surely by amputating the gangrenous foot that is Greece from the system, that generally improves the prospects of survival of the remaining body of nations? That is what amputations are normally carried out to achieve.

so portugal is the other clubbed foot, spain the festering ball sack and italy the handscollostomy-bag and france the headsenile dementure brain, yea go for it

Fixed that for you.

I wonder where that leaves us in the UK? If France, our nearest neighbour, is a festering ballsack then would it seem logical to say that we are an anal pustular? And Scotland is the yellow head of the boil, about to erupt?

Altogether too medically challenging for a shy and retiring  flower like me to cope with!! Far too  graphic for my comfort!

I agree with RHY64E on this, in that the UK has been very good to me and my familly and I do like it here, in the UK. However I have also looked at  the quality of life in Italy and specifically in the hidden gem, that is Lucca, in Tuscany,  as a better place to be for the duration of each winter, for me personally.

This has enabled me to maintain walking 10 kilometres a day around the walls of Lucca every day, which has at last enabled me to get well under 14 Stones for the first time ever (in 70 years).  The Health benefits of this became just too great for even me, to ignore. I do feel very much better now than I was doing before I recognised major lifestyle changes were needed or there would be very serious health consequences. 

Turning back to real subject here, The EU have no solution to this problem other than to print money and throw it away on prolonging the collapse of an insolvent EU member state. There will be no recovery for Greece, sadly. The EU are going to lose this battle and the consequences are difficult to estimate with any degree of  certainly. But Greece has not recovered in the last five years and will not recover.

I find it challenging that a number of followers on here seem to believe that the EU has the power to make this dream come true. It is my contention that, if the EU actually had that power then Greece would be well on the way to recovery by now after five years of subsidy and Hundreds of Billions of loans. Soon to be written off i think? In fact Greece is becoming ever more insolvent by the day and has been doing so every day for the last five years.

To my mind the steady worsening of the economy of Greece will be the deciding factor in this matter. As the IMF suggests the essential requirement is to reduce the debts of Greece to manageable levels. Such a reduction would shatter the illusion that the EU is relying upon to continue pretending all is well with the Greek recovery plan. It is not and it will not ever be well. Regrettably in consequence Greece will inevitably fail.

[Gargamel]

Rent is not higher in the UK than in Switzerland, that is palpable nonsense, I would love to see the source of that, are they comparing Mayfair with some cow pasture hallway up the Matterhorn.

Bullst, and a fair bit of the rest of list is pony too.

We don't have the highest deficit of all time, it is just not true.

[Luke Warm]

Jimboka said:

Good list
But I don't see families in Dover Beach cramming into a raft to depart for a better life
Things look fine around here. If it's that bad, what are the other places like?

1,000,000 people depart for a better life every three years.

[Luke Warm]

Gargamel said:

Rent is not higher in the UK than in Switzerland, that is palpable nonsense, I would love to see the source of that, are they comparing Mayfair with some cow pasture hallway up the Matterhorn.

Bullst, and a fair bit of the rest of list is pony too.

We don't have the highest deficit of all time, it is just not true.

Highest rents in Europe.



Record high current account deficit.

[DJRC]

Luke Warm said:

Gargamel said:

Rent is not higher in the UK than in Switzerland, that is palpable nonsense, I would love to see the source of that, are they comparing Mayfair with some cow pasture hallway up the Matterhorn.

Bullst, and a fair bit of the rest of list is pony too.

We don't have the highest deficit of all time, it is just not true.

Highest rents in Europe.



Record high current account deficit.

Oh goody some random figures. Rent in Zurich, 10mins from airport and 10mins from hauptbahnhoff on the S7 (Garg help me out is the S7 the Kloten line or the S8) is 1000 chufs a month. For. Brand new funky two bed flat it's 1400. Rent in Munch for a 1 bed apt via Mr Lodge is about 1400Euros. You can get rooms in places for about 1000 Euros. If you go down towards Gilching on the S8 which is about 30mins from hauptbahnhoff you cAn get a room for about 800.
Amsterdam and Leiden are similar but AirBnB is changing the game.

Those are comparable to about 30mins from London.
Please note the exchange has buggered things about in the last year.

Would Sir like to know what rents are in Bern, Neuchatel, Firenze, Pisa, Lucca, Rome, Avezzano or Bordeau are without resorting to a graph off the Internet which is at best tertiary information and instead use primary sources ?

Or would Sir like to continue his impersonation of a lemming?

[LongQ]

Luke Warm said:

Jimboka said:

Good list
But I don't see families in Dover Beach cramming into a raft to depart for a better life
Things look fine around here. If it's that bad, what are the other places like?

1,000,000 people depart for a better life every three years.

Name them. There must be a list somewhere.

[spikeyhead]

I've rented in a little town in the Netherlands.

A one bed flat five years ago was 900Eu a month. For that a couple of years later I was getting a decent three bed house in a nice part of Derby.

[Luke Warm]

DJRC said:

Oh goody some random figures. Rent in Zurich, 10mins from airport and 10mins from hauptbahnhoff on the S7 (Garg help me out is the S7 the Kloten line or the S8) is 1000 chufs a month. For. Brand new funky two bed flat it's 1400. Rent in Munch for a 1 bed apt via Mr Lodge is about 1400Euros. You can get rooms in places for about 1000 Euros. If you go down towards Gilching on the S8 which is about 30mins from hauptbahnhoff you cAn get a room for about 800.
Amsterdam and Leiden are similar but AirBnB is changing the game.

Those are comparable to about 30mins from London.
Please note the exchange has buggered things about in the last year.

Would Sir like to know what rents are in Bern, Neuchatel, Firenze, Pisa, Lucca, Rome, Avezzano or Bordeau are without resorting to a graph off the Internet which is at best tertiary information and instead use primary sources ?

Or would Sir like to continue his impersonation of a lemming?

I'll take those figures over some random bloke off the internet's anecdotes.

Continue doing your impression of an ostrich.

[LongQ]

Luke Warm said:

Highest rents in Europe.

I notice Eire is not on the list. Have they been expelled from the EU or is their rental property too cheap to charge for?

[Steffan]

spikeyhead said:

I've rented in a little town in the Netherlands.

A one bed flat five years ago was 900Eu a month. For that a couple of years later I was getting a decent three bed house in a nice part of Derby.

If there are any nice parts of Derby I have missed them. Despite Many years of working regularly on RR matters.

Italian rents certainly are amongst the cheapest I have seen in Europe fallen by about one third over the last few years. Significantly cheaper now ignoring the fallen Euro consequences. All in all very cheap and very pleasant place to live. I love the Italian approach to life. If its not fun they do not do it!

Not a bad approach. Better than the Anglo Saxon bust a gut approach. Lost less stress and troible! Come day, some day, maybe one day is not a bad approach to achieving an unconcerned and low frustration lifestyle. Demonstrated by Italians eveywhere! Lovely people but targets and timetables pass them by!

[DJRC]

Normally the random bloke off the net line is a viable come back. To me, on this thread, on this subject - esp when my profile still says Zurich! - then no. As most on here will confirm whoring myself around Europe, living in said places and reporting back on what's happening across the Manche is kinda what I do. Steffan knows the Lucca prices as he has a gaff out there, Garg does a fair bit in Zurich and Zarse knows his Dutch st also. We ARE the first hand knowledge whether you like it or not.

[tumble dryer]

DJRC said:

Normally the random bloke off the net line is a viable come back. To me, on this thread, on this subject - esp when my profile still says Zurich! - then no. As most on here will confirm whoring myself around Europe, living in said places and reporting back on what's happening across the Manche is kinda what I do. Steffan knows the Lucca prices as he has a gaff out there, Garg does a fair bit in Zurich and Zarse knows his Dutch st also. We ARE the first hand knowledge whether you like it or not.

We're fortunate to get this from a cross-section of thinking peeps on the ground.

I like Europe. I like it's diversity and I like it's wish to be 'together'.

I fecking detest the manipulution that goes on behind the scenes.

Edited by tumble dryer on Friday 21st August 23:15

[Luke Warm]

DJRC said:

Normally the random bloke off the net line is a viable come back. To me, on this thread, on this subject - esp when my profile still says Zurich! - then no. As most on here will confirm whoring myself around Europe, living in said places and reporting back on what's happening across the Manche is kinda what I do. Steffan knows the Lucca prices as he has a gaff out there, Garg does a fair bit in Zurich and Zarse knows his Dutch st also. We ARE the first hand knowledge whether you like it or not.

That doesn't explain this (EU only).





http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/06/where-europ...

[anonymous-user]

Luke Warm said:

Jimboka said:

Good list
But I don't see families in Dover Beach cramming into a raft to depart for a better life
Things look fine around here. If it's that bad, what are the other places like?

1,000,000 people depart for a better life every three years.

So say 1 in 60?
I'm sure the ratio would be a lot higher if it was that fantastically wonderful elsewhere!
Seeing the news, it sounds like we are getting off pretty lightly compared to the rest of Europe..

[Ridgemont]

I think the critical element in that little infomap and explanation is nailed in the burried comment;

'London in particular is now notorious as a hub for international property'

Indeed. Strip out London pricing and then look at the results. But either way if looked at as % it isn't hugely off the euro average and even if it is, I wouldntakenthat as a refutation of Lukewarms nonsense list; the price reflects demand and that is reflective of large scale EU migration to the UK because there is a snowflakes chance of a job.

[LongQ]

Luke Warm said:

I'll take those figures over some random bloke off the internet's anecdotes.

Continue doing your impression of an ostrich.

If it is any way possible to compare numbers across the housing market operations of different countries and cultures then an independently developed and produced set of figures with an explanation of methodology and assumptions made might well be welcome. Perhaps it exists somewhere and might even be the basis for the graph from the National Housing Federation. So far as I have spotted there is no reference or citation offered.

One might argue that high property values and the consequence of high market rental prices is in some ways unfortunate and a result of a strangely skewed attitude from the UK population about the value of bricks and mortar. An attitude that does not seem to exist to anything like the same degree in the rest of Europe other than in some large cities.

Or one might interpret it as a sign of the success of the UK economy, compared to much of the rest of Europe, as seen from the point of view of the rest of the world - especially those ROW residents who believe investing in property in London is a good idea. The "success" may be a misinterpretation of course but for now that is how things are.

It is perhaps also worth noting the the National Housing Federation and its members have a political campaign to plug in support of low cost housing which presumably means subsidised housing of one sort or another.

I don't have a problem with that if the concept is applied appropriately. Landowners used to provide estate workers with somewhere to live (probably mostly for reasons of control). When industrialisation came along accommodation was provided for workers and some of the more enlightened (and wealthy) businesses created entire villages centred on their business. Later, as wars changed the pattern of life and social changes along with a growing population the focus shifted to Local Authorities getting in to the provision of social housing with vary degrees of success.

Now we have a housing bubble because the UK population (or that part of it that feels a need to be self supportive for whatever reason) see property as a better investment bet than pensions. Who can blame them. The lenders will not (or would prefer not to) advise them differently. And so the market bloats fiscally.

It's almost tempting to consider moving to somewhere that looks really cheap and telecommuting .... but so far as I can tell from the experience of others that may not be as successful, financially, as one might hope for. Still, for now it looks like a London salary might go a long way in Lithuania or Latvia.

[Andy Zarse]

Luke Warm said:

DJRC said:

What's with the popar notion of the UK as being fked? The UK quite palpably isn't fked.

You may want to make a cup of tea first.

• Total debt 500% of GDP (household, government, corporate)
• Inflation virtually non-existent
• Record high current account deficit
• 3rd highest budget deficit in the European Union
• Productivity 20% lower than Germany
• Consumer debt twice EU average
• House prices five times average earnings
• Highest rents in Europe (higher than Switzerland!)
• British homes have smallest rooms in Western Europe
• Train fares 50% higher than rest of Europe
• Petrol and diesel 12% higher than rest of Europe
• Roads more congested than any major EU country
• Most expensive fruit and veg in the European Union
• 1.8 million single parent households (650,000 of which are not in any sort of work)
• Highest abortion rate in Western Europe
• Young people unhappiest and 'most alienated' in Europe
• Double the EU average of under-18s with no working parent at home
• More than half the population is overweight
• British people are least likely in Europe to intervene if they witness a crime
• Highest use of cocaine, ecstasy, and amphetamines in the EU
• Worst cancer survival rates in Western Europe
• Highest rate of deaths from strokes in the western world
• Teenage pregnancy, violent crime, and shoplifting capital of Europe
• Ranked 21st for science, 23rd for reading, and 26th for maths out of 65 countries
• 22% of children leave school functionally innumerate
• 17% are functionally illiterate
• Social mobility has not improved in 30 years

The list goes on and on...

Edited by Luke Warm on Friday 21st August 16:43

I'm afraid so much of these so-called facts are utter rubbish.

[NicD]

Here is an example

'Social mobility has not improved in 30 years'

So why are the rags full of nobodies I have never heard of - reality wes, footballers,/WAGs, lottery winners, general big mouths?
I guess this measure of 'Social mobility' means something specific, but what?

Both academics and government measure ‘social mobility’ in a variety of ways.
Academics can’t agree on whether social mobility has declined or remained the same over the last fifty years and whether Britain’s mobility is average or poor compared to other developing countries.
Government measurements often compare the performance of children eligible for free school meals with their peers – a measure limited in how much it truly indicates a child’s ‘disadvantage’.

https://fullfact.org/education/social_mobility_wha...

[EskimoArapaho]

DJRC said:

Normally the random bloke off the net line is a viable come back. To me, on this thread, on this subject - esp when my profile still says Zurich! - then no. As most on here will confirm whoring myself around Europe, living in said places and reporting back on what's happening across the Manche is kinda what I do. Steffan knows the Lucca prices as he has a gaff out there, Garg does a fair bit in Zurich and Zarse knows his Dutch st also. We ARE the first hand knowledge whether you like it or not.

Yes, you're the bloke who lands in one country and within about 2 days starts pontificating about how it works, or what's wrong with it. Unsurprisingly, these observations always seem to fully support your world view and your selfishness.

You do this repeatedly, and with some wit. But no authority.