Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 3]
Discussion
tumble dryer said:
jacobingonzo said:
methinks something is rotten in the state of Denmark!- could be the beginning of the end if Deutsche Bank is teetering on the precipice.
??? (But top lurking!) 
Digga said:
tumble dryer said:
jacobingonzo said:
methinks something is rotten in the state of Denmark!- could be the beginning of the end if Deutsche Bank is teetering on the precipice.
??? (But top lurking!) tumble dryer said:
Digga said:
tumble dryer said:
jacobingonzo said:
methinks something is rotten in the state of Denmark!- could be the beginning of the end if Deutsche Bank is teetering on the precipice.
??? (But top lurking!) since that his contribution to our language and the sheer volume of everyday phrases derived from Shakespeare are just totally breathtaking. There is simply no equal in the Englsh language. Which is arguably one of the worlds greatest languages. Which places Shakespeare right at the top of all writers worldwide. Totally excetional gifted and immensley able writer. Stunning and prolific.
Back on the challenges facing the UK as the Brexit plan is gradually hammered out by David Davis and his cohorts and Boris Johnson chipping in from time to time I think we really are in the "Wait and see" part of the process. It will take some time for an agreed formula can be acheved and discussed within the EU and the UK. It could well be years before actual Brexit, occurs, if in fact the game ends in that way?
By that I mean that the repeated and growing evidence of the inadequacy of the current EU "solution" involving QE printing of money which enables the EU to hide the reality of the bankruptcy of Greece and the failing Banks in Germany such as Deutchebank, and the failing Italian banks and the failing French bans, all of whom are hoplessly insolvent, may cause another challenge to the management skills (?) of the EU. It could well be, in my view that the game is up for the EU long before the UK actually manages to extract itself from the EU!
It is a matter of time and I really do now think that the glory days of the EU have long gone, and are being replaced with ever increasing evidence, from a number opf states within the EU, that all is most certainly not going at all well. Nor can it, because as the Shakespearian phrases above suggest the reality is very different from the damnable hype that is promulgated by the EU.
The EU is going nowhere, more and more evidence of the hidden weakness contained within the EU are gradually becoming more and more visible. Too many real unanswerable probems repeatedly coming to light, for the EU to fail to answer and resolve and try to hide away with their shenanigans. Might have worked in the past but not any longer!
I really do think that the EU has totally lost its way and it is a moot point which comes first Brext or EU tragedy. Time will tell! Either way we are headng towards massive changes across Europe. There are too many spin doctors trying to bamboozle the EU taxpayers and too few honest politicians around to see this nonsense as the unsupportable mess it has become! Changes are coming!!
Edited by Steffan on Thursday 28th July 23:40
An interesting article regarding the the IMF:
"The report said the whole approach to the eurozone was characterised by “groupthink” and intellectual capture. They had no fall-back plans on how to tackle a systemic crisis in the eurozone – or how to deal with the politics of a multinational currency union – because they had ruled out any possibility that it could happen.
“Before the launch of the euro, the IMF’s public statements tended to emphasize the advantages of the common currency, “ it said. Some staff members warned that the design of the euro was fundamentally flawed but they were overruled.
“After a heated internal debate, the view supportive of what was perceived to be Europe’s political project ultimately prevailed,” it said...."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/28/imf...
IMF report:
http://www.ieo-imf.org/ieo/files/completedevaluati...BP_16-02_08Living_with_Rules_-_The_IMF_s_Exceptional_Framework_and_the_2010_SBA_with_Greece.PDF
"The report said the whole approach to the eurozone was characterised by “groupthink” and intellectual capture. They had no fall-back plans on how to tackle a systemic crisis in the eurozone – or how to deal with the politics of a multinational currency union – because they had ruled out any possibility that it could happen.
“Before the launch of the euro, the IMF’s public statements tended to emphasize the advantages of the common currency, “ it said. Some staff members warned that the design of the euro was fundamentally flawed but they were overruled.
“After a heated internal debate, the view supportive of what was perceived to be Europe’s political project ultimately prevailed,” it said...."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/28/imf...
IMF report:
http://www.ieo-imf.org/ieo/files/completedevaluati...BP_16-02_08Living_with_Rules_-_The_IMF_s_Exceptional_Framework_and_the_2010_SBA_with_Greece.PDF
Before the Euro's creation they had entry criteria governing economies so they would be in step with each other and no issues would arise (lol).
At the time the only country close to meeting them was the UK, so they threw them in the bin and made the political decision to go ahead, regardless.
At the time the only country close to meeting them was the UK, so they threw them in the bin and made the political decision to go ahead, regardless.
Art0ir said:
I'm nearly sure someone on here gave the impression that the Euro founders knew all along the currency would fail without political union, I remember them echoing a story I hear elsewhere in person.
I seem to remember similar and I am sure it was a theory - plausible when you look at the socialist dogma at the core of the project - that has been aired on here.ETA that IMF article is damning. Shows what happens when a supposedly financial institution is hijacked by political dogma, groupthink and the corrupting influence of business <cough>Goldman Sachs</cough>.
Edited by Digga on Friday 29th July 08:48
I came on here to post that IMF article.
Pretty much a vindication of what many people on here were saying at the time, it simply could not work. pushing down debt to GDP by making slashing public sector cuts in a country where over 45% of the employed workforce are public sector workers shrank the economic base, making the need for more cuts and more bailouts.
It was obvious at the time. Why the IMF called it so badly wrong is a mystery.
Be interesting to see the fall out from that report.
Digga said:
Art0ir said:
I'm nearly sure someone on here gave the impression that the Euro founders knew all along the currency would fail without political union, I remember them echoing a story I hear elsewhere in person.
I seem to remember similar and I am sure it was a theory - plausible when you look at the socialist dogma at the core of the project - that has been aired on here.ETA that IMF article is damning. Shows what happens when a supposedly financial institution is hijacked by political dogma, groupthink and the corrupting influence of business <cough>Goldman Sachs</cough>.
Edited by Digga on Friday 29th July 08:48
http://www.voxeu.org/article/monnet-s-chain-reacti...
nice quote in there from Helmut Kohl on the Euro:
Article said:
For instance, in 1991 German Chancellor Helmut Kohl said: "It is absurd to expect in the long run that you can maintain economic and monetary union without political union." In Monnet’s chain-reaction tradition, Kohl’s statement was not meant as a damning assessment of the long-term viability of the euro, but as an optimistic prediction that, eventually, political union would ‘have to’ follow economic and monetary union.
Re IMF - the standout extract in the Telegraph is this:"in an astonishing admission, the report said its own investigators were unable to obtain key records or penetrate the activities of secretive 'ad-hoc task forces'.... many documents were prepared outside of the regular established channels"..
Hmmm.
Ridgemont said:
Re IMF - the standout extract in the Telegraph is this:
"in an astonishing admission, the report said its own investigators were unable to obtain key records or penetrate the activities of secretive 'ad-hoc task forces'.... many documents were prepared outside of the regular established channels"..
Hmmm.
Remind you of anything? Any other large organisation you might be able to think of with un-audited accounts?"in an astonishing admission, the report said its own investigators were unable to obtain key records or penetrate the activities of secretive 'ad-hoc task forces'.... many documents were prepared outside of the regular established channels"..
Hmmm.
Digga said:
Ridgemont said:
Re IMF - the standout extract in the Telegraph is this:
"in an astonishing admission, the report said its own investigators were unable to obtain key records or penetrate the activities of secretive 'ad-hoc task forces'.... many documents were prepared outside of the regular established channels"..
Hmmm.
Remind you of anything? Any other large organisation you might be able to think of with un-audited accounts?"in an astonishing admission, the report said its own investigators were unable to obtain key records or penetrate the activities of secretive 'ad-hoc task forces'.... many documents were prepared outside of the regular established channels"..
Hmmm.
Art0ir said:
I'm nearly sure someone on here gave the impression that the Euro founders knew all along the currency would fail without political union, I remember them echoing a story I hear elsewhere in person.
Romano Prodi, FT 2001; with respect to fiscal union “I am sure the euro will oblige us to introduce a new set of economic policy instruments. It is politically impossible to propose that now. But some day there will be a crisis and new instruments will be created.”I assume you guys are up to speed with the EU pensions debate.
I love this, just shows what a bunch of fools the Eurocrats are, overpaid, and out of touch.
22000 Euro workers have amassed a pension liability of E60bn, roughly 2,73m Euros each.
But hilariously rather than make any kind of investment in a pension scheme they simply pay liabilities our of current budgets... good long term planning there. (I know a few UK bodies do the same)
Great to see that the EU are going to pick a fight about this, and make it gloriously public.... lets just take a moment to reflect on how this will sit with the average Greek Public Sector Pensioner.....
Gargamel said:
I assume you guys are up to speed with the EU pensions debate.
I love this, just shows what a bunch of fools the Eurocrats are, overpaid, and out of touch.
22000 Euro workers have amassed a pension liability of E60bn, roughly 2,73m Euros each.
But hilariously rather than make any kind of investment in a pension scheme they simply pay liabilities our of current budgets... good long term planning there. (I know a few UK bodies do the same)
Great to see that the EU are going to pick a fight about this, and make it gloriously public.... lets just take a moment to reflect on how this will sit with the average Greek Public Sector Pensioner.....
Surely we should pay 1/28th of the 1730 UK members pensions?I love this, just shows what a bunch of fools the Eurocrats are, overpaid, and out of touch.
22000 Euro workers have amassed a pension liability of E60bn, roughly 2,73m Euros each.
But hilariously rather than make any kind of investment in a pension scheme they simply pay liabilities our of current budgets... good long term planning there. (I know a few UK bodies do the same)
Great to see that the EU are going to pick a fight about this, and make it gloriously public.... lets just take a moment to reflect on how this will sit with the average Greek Public Sector Pensioner.....
gizlaroc said:
Gargamel said:
I assume you guys are up to speed with the EU pensions debate.
I love this, just shows what a bunch of fools the Eurocrats are, overpaid, and out of touch.
22000 Euro workers have amassed a pension liability of E60bn, roughly 2,73m Euros each.
But hilariously rather than make any kind of investment in a pension scheme they simply pay liabilities our of current budgets... good long term planning there. (I know a few UK bodies do the same)
Great to see that the EU are going to pick a fight about this, and make it gloriously public.... lets just take a moment to reflect on how this will sit with the average Greek Public Sector Pensioner.....
Surely we should pay 1/28th of the 1730 UK members pensions?I love this, just shows what a bunch of fools the Eurocrats are, overpaid, and out of touch.
22000 Euro workers have amassed a pension liability of E60bn, roughly 2,73m Euros each.
But hilariously rather than make any kind of investment in a pension scheme they simply pay liabilities our of current budgets... good long term planning there. (I know a few UK bodies do the same)
Great to see that the EU are going to pick a fight about this, and make it gloriously public.... lets just take a moment to reflect on how this will sit with the average Greek Public Sector Pensioner.....
Stu T said:
An interesting article regarding the the IMF:
"The report said the whole approach to the eurozone was characterised by “groupthink” and intellectual capture. They had no fall-back plans on how to tackle a systemic crisis in the eurozone – or how to deal with the politics of a multinational currency union – because they had ruled out any possibility that it could happen.
“Before the launch of the euro, the IMF’s public statements tended to emphasize the advantages of the common currency, “ it said. Some staff members warned that the design of the euro was fundamentally flawed but they were overruled.
“After a heated internal debate, the view supportive of what was perceived to be Europe’s political project ultimately prevailed,” it said...."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/28/imf...
IMF report:
http://www.ieo-imf.org/ieo/files/completedevaluati...BP_16-02_08Living_with_Rules_-_The_IMF_s_Exceptional_Framework_and_the_2010_SBA_with_Greece.PDF
The EU and Greece still exists and thats without a plan, imagine if they get a plan togther "The report said the whole approach to the eurozone was characterised by “groupthink” and intellectual capture. They had no fall-back plans on how to tackle a systemic crisis in the eurozone – or how to deal with the politics of a multinational currency union – because they had ruled out any possibility that it could happen.
“Before the launch of the euro, the IMF’s public statements tended to emphasize the advantages of the common currency, “ it said. Some staff members warned that the design of the euro was fundamentally flawed but they were overruled.
“After a heated internal debate, the view supportive of what was perceived to be Europe’s political project ultimately prevailed,” it said...."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/28/imf...
IMF report:
http://www.ieo-imf.org/ieo/files/completedevaluati...BP_16-02_08Living_with_Rules_-_The_IMF_s_Exceptional_Framework_and_the_2010_SBA_with_Greece.PDF
mikemike08 said:
The EU and Greece still exists and thats without a plan, imagine if they get a plan togther
Sure but there's only so much 'worse' to go.Incompetents bimbling along together is quite possibly better than forming a rickety plan then not being capable of implementing it! In other words, nothing much would change
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37023479
Spain and Portugal miss Budget deficit targets but avoid fines - as did France last year.
BBC Comments
"BBC reporter Naomi Grimley in Brussels says European leaders are reluctant to impose fines, fearing it could simply stoke anti-EU opinion in Spain and Portugal.
However, critics are likely to argue that the EU loses credibility if it agrees rules and then fails to enforce them."
To put that another way, the EU "will do whatever it takes" to try to stop a rocking boat rocking.
Spain and Portugal miss Budget deficit targets but avoid fines - as did France last year.
BBC Comments
"BBC reporter Naomi Grimley in Brussels says European leaders are reluctant to impose fines, fearing it could simply stoke anti-EU opinion in Spain and Portugal.
However, critics are likely to argue that the EU loses credibility if it agrees rules and then fails to enforce them."
To put that another way, the EU "will do whatever it takes" to try to stop a rocking boat rocking.
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